Revelation was written 41 AD. Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, 55 AD said he knew someone 14 years earlier caught up to heaven that saw things that can't be written which is what happens to John in Revelation 10:4 ; an angel tells him don't write some things down. Paul doesn't say it was the author of Revelation he is talking about because he does not want to boast. Internally in Rev 11 the temple is still standing, and being destroyed which is describing the Romans doing it 70 AD, and Daniel 9 which ended 70 AD said vision, and prophecy would stop 70 AD, and Revelation contains vision, and prophecy. Dan 9 was saying inspired scripture would stop 70 AD. I reject external evidence if it conflicts with inspired scripture therefore I reject apocryphal acts of John (150 AD), and Irenaeus (180 AD) that say Revelation was written in the 90s AD under Domitian. They must of had corrupted oral traditions of when it was written passed on to them.
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Date of authorship of Revelation
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I agree. One only needs to read the opening verses in the book of Revelation to realize this book is talking about a future event in the first century. Jesus Christ of Nazareth confirms this event as well.
Revelation 1:1-3 (NKJV)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
Matthew 16:28 (NKJV)
> “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”q
* Mark 9:1 (NKJV): "And He said to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.'"
* Luke 9:27 (NKJV): "But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”
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amen thanks for the positive response God bless you. In case you are preterist only Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad though rev 13-22 is future
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Sure. That is where we depart. I believe the beast is Nero, Caesar, 666.amen thanks for the positive response God bless you. In case you are preterist only Rev 1-12 happened 70 ad though rev 13-22 is future
Further explanation:
The interpretation that the number 666 refers to the Roman Emperor Nero Caesar is the most widely accepted historical view among biblical scholars, relying on a method called gematria. Gematria is the Hebrew practice of assigning a numerical value to letters. When the name Nerōn Kaisar (Nero Caesar) is transliterated into Hebrew letters (נרון קסר), the sum of their numerical values is 666. This interpretation suggests the number was a coded message to first-century Christians suffering under Nero's persecution, allowing the author of Revelation to identify the oppressive emperor (the "Beast") without risking direct confrontation with Rome.
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We don't know that Paul was referring to John of Patmos. To say as such is pure conjecture. We also don't know when Revelation was written or whether John of Patmos is the same John who wrote the Gospel and letters.
So, I wouldn't put too much stock into holding firmly to any one particular assessment of the meaning of the book of Revelation.
Moreover, I think rejecting external evidence is a cultic praxis for reading the Bible and should be avoided.
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I don't think gematria has as much to do with reading 666 as many seem to think it does.
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For the moment, I'll just say that while I think there's room to apply 666 to Nero, I prefer to read this number in a way that is consistent with the symbolic mode by which everything else is stated by Christ to John in the book of Revelation. And if we remain consistent in our applied hermeneutics, we won't artificially bring in a nod to gematria and assume that this is the interpretive key of the book when it might very well not be.
But, I could be wrong.
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Nope. It was not written in 41 AD. There is no evidence to support that whatsoever. The conditions of the churches at that time would not match what is described in Revelation 2 and 3. That alone proves your theory wrong.
Paul was talking about himself in 2nd Corinthians 12. You can see that he strongly hinted at that if you actually read the text carefully.
1 Corinthians 12:1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
Notice that Paul was talking about how it would not be profitable for him to boast about visions and revelations of the Lord that he had. The reason he didn't explicitly say he was talking about himself is because he didn't want to come across as if he was boasting about the experience he had. But, he wouldn't have talked about himself having no reason to boast and about not wanting anyone to think more highly of him than they should. He revealed that he was talking about himself implicitly, but didn't want to do it explicitly because of his concern about coming across as boasting about it.
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Do you think that is talking about the entire book consisting of things that would shortly take place? If so, then what do you make of this verse:
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
And how do you think the thousand years of Revelation 20 shortly took place exactly? And where are the new heavens and new earth where there would be no more death, crying, sorrow or pain? Why is the first heaven and first earth still here? Why hasn't Jesus returned yet if the book of Revelation is fulfilled?
Continue reading after those verses. Jesus was referring to His transfiguration there where some of the disciples standing there (Peter, James and John) saw Jesus in all His glory and power to give them a foretaste or foreshadowing of His second coming.
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Yeh I believe Paul was talking about the author of Revelation. On Pentecost there are people from all nations under heaven in one spot, 3000 believes in Jesus then they would of travelled back to their home countries (Asia was one which is where the 7 churches were) started churches, and so by 41 AD the churches could of been running for 8 years (assume the crucifixion was 33 AD, and they went back home after Pentecost, and started churches right away), and started to develop doctrinal problems. We find one of the Herods had enough political power in Judea to kill John the Baptist around 33 AD so Antipas that was killed in Revelation could of been killed by one of the local Roman politicians in Pergamon. Roman politicians could kill anyone they want in that city (will look for source). So there is no date problem for the churches in Revelation being 41 AD. 41-54 AD was Claudius Caesars rule, and he kicked Judeans out of Rome (Acts 18:2) 49 AD whether Christian or non Christian Judeans. He observed Christianity started in Judea, and saw there was conflict between Judeans about Jesus, and just wanted them gone
In Claudius 25 Suetonius refers to the expulsion of Jews by Claudius and states (in Catharine Edwards' translation):[1] Chrestus= Christ/Jesus.
There is no internal or external problem with Revelation being written 41 AD. The earlier the better as ch 1-12 was about to come on the whole land of Judea- Gods worst judgement in history on OT Israel, and the end of it never to return again.
As for other external dates they range from Domitian, Claudius, Nero, even Caligula. I believe inspired scripture stopped 70 AD so i go with internal evidence over external evidence.
Someone 900-1000 AD said Antipas was burned alive in a metal bull but this is very late, and no early sources say it. Chapt GPT said there was one early source about Antipas but I could not find it. Will look again.
In Claudius 25 Suetonius refers to the expulsion of Jews by Claudius and states (in Catharine Edwards' translation):[1] Chrestus= Christ/Jesus.
Slavonic Josephus says Claudius exiled Christians to distant lands, and that was 44-48 AD Gnostic John the Baptizer - III. The Slavonic Josephus' A... | Sacred Texts Archive so Claudius was known to just kick people out of places, and not kill them which is Johns (whoever John was) situation in Revelation.
There is no internal or external problem with Revelation being written 41 AD. The earlier the better as ch 1-12 was about to come on the whole land of Judea- Gods worst judgement in history on OT Israel, and the end of it never to return again.
As for other external dates they range from Domitian, Claudius, Nero, even Caligula. I believe inspired scripture stopped 70 AD so i go with internal evidence over external evidence.
Someone 900-1000 AD said Antipas was burned alive in a metal bull but this is very late, and no early sources say it. Chapt GPT said there was one early source about Antipas but I could not find it. Will look again.
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You're leaving a lot of details out here that don't support your theory.
The church in Ephesus was not even founded until 51 AD and that is one of the churches addressed in Revelation. So, it cannot possibly have been written in 41 AD.
Also, the type of persecution that is described as happening in some of the churches aligns better with the policies of Emperor Domitian's reign in the 90s AD than with the reign of Claudius in 41 AD.
Can you address what I said in post #9 about who Paul was talking about in 2nd Corinthians 12? It doesn't appear that you read 2nd Corinthians 12 very carefully. What he said strongly hinted that he was talking about himself, but he just didn't want to say it explicitly because he didn't want to come across as though he was boasting about his experience.
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The church in Ephesus can be founded shortly after people from Ephesus on Pentecost go back to their home country, and start a church in 33 AD. Revelation internally it is written pre 70 AD so I reject any idea it was written after that. The type of persecution (synagogue only in Rev 2:9, 3:9, no Roman except for Pergamon where the Roman politicians can kill anyone they want, exiling Christians which aligns with Claudius) aligns with early persecution not Nero, and not Domitian.
No he did not want to say " I know the person that wrote Revelation" as that would be boasting kind of like someone today saying "I know the person that started bitcoin" or some other big brag that hardly anyone would know the answer to. There is no internal problem with me believing Paul is referencing John that wrote Rev 41 AD.
" 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast" He is boasting about someone else.
No he did not want to say " I know the person that wrote Revelation" as that would be boasting kind of like someone today saying "I know the person that started bitcoin" or some other big brag that hardly anyone would know the answer to. There is no internal problem with me believing Paul is referencing John that wrote Rev 41 AD.
" 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast" He is boasting about someone else.
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Josephus The Antiquities of the Jews, 18.83
815. There was a man who was a Jew, but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same; but in all respects a wicked man. He, then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses.
82He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity, and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem; and when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves, on which account it was that they at first required it of her.
83Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it, ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome; 84at which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia; but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers, on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.
This was 19 AD. So even before Claudius Roman emperors sent people off to distant lands for causing trouble.
The above women sent the valuable items because she thought they would be used to decorate the temple of the God of Abraham but instead the blokes kept the riches themselves or sold them. LOL.
The above event reminds me of this
Mark 7
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.
So rather than use money or gold to help their parents they were keeping it themselves and telling each other they were devoting it to God which is why they didn't help their parents with it.
815. There was a man who was a Jew, but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same; but in all respects a wicked man. He, then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses.
82He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity, and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem; and when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves, on which account it was that they at first required it of her.
83Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it, ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome; 84at which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia; but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers, on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.
This was 19 AD. So even before Claudius Roman emperors sent people off to distant lands for causing trouble.
The above women sent the valuable items because she thought they would be used to decorate the temple of the God of Abraham but instead the blokes kept the riches themselves or sold them. LOL.
The above event reminds me of this
Mark 7
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.
So rather than use money or gold to help their parents they were keeping it themselves and telling each other they were devoting it to God which is why they didn't help their parents with it.
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I know you are talking to me, but you're not quoting me to make that clear. Why is that?
It seems that you just believe what you want to believe regardless of what the evidence shows. The evidence indicates that the church in Ephesus was established around 51 AD, not shortly after people from Ephesus returned home from Pentecost. Scholars estimate that when Paul visited Ephesus, as recorded in Acts 19, it was around 50 AD. They had no established church before that.
From what I read about how things were in the 1st century in the Roman province of Asia, the persecution that occurred there was specifically linked to the issues described in Revelation (emperor worship, economic pressure, martyrdom) and that is largely attributed to the period around Domitian's rule.
Read all of 2 Corinthians 12 and you could see he spoke a lot about himself not wanting to boast. Why would he talk about himself like that if he was not talking about himself in verses 2 to 4? He didn't want to explicitly say that he was talking about himself because he didn't want to come across as boasting. He indicated in verse 5 that if he was talking about someone else, he would boast about that person. But, the fact that he talked about his own desire not to boast was him clearly implying that he was talking about himself without wanting to say it explicitly.
You're ignoring everything else that is said in the passage where he clearly is referring to himself. Why would he talk about himself not wanting to boast so much in the passage if he wasn't talking about himself? What he was saying in verse 5 is that if it was someone else he would boast about that person, but he would not boast about himself. That's why he did not want to reveal that he was talking about himself in verses 2 to 4. He didn't want to come across as boasting. But, he strongly hinted that he was talking about himself throughout the passage, as I showed. You didn't address anything I said about the context of the passage in 2 Corinthians 12.
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Provide whatever proof you have that the church of Ephesus could not of got started shortly after Pentecost.
5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.
I think he is being honest in that above verse but you think he is lying pretending it was someone else he knew that had that heavenly experience when really it was him. I don't have to invoke lying authors to support my belief. Yes I believe Paul is referring to the author of Revelation.
Revelation 21:2-4
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
John is seeing all kinds of supernatural spiritual things in Revelation. There is no conflict with believing Paul is talking about the author of Revelation.
2 Corinthians 11 30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.
So Paul boasts about his weaknesses being a "fool", and his thorn in the flesh whatever it was. Having a heavenly experience is not a weakness. Paul is talking about the author of Revelation, and not himself in 2 Cor 12.
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