Why do some people speak in an at least 700-year-old version of the English language?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
KJV
- Thread starter martinlb
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Actually the King James Bible is a little over 400 years old. While it is increasingly challenging to read for every new generation, it is basically readable . It is not subject to copyright laws so it is inexpensive and convenient for all kinds of communication.
It is the Wycliffe translation of 14th century English that is much closer to 700 years. While Wycliffe did a great service, the language in his translation is truly obsolete now.
Compare ( for ex.) John 3:16
“¶ For God so loued þe world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.”
1611 King James Version (KJV
To the 1382 Wycliffe translation:
It is the Wycliffe translation of 14th century English that is much closer to 700 years. While Wycliffe did a great service, the language in his translation is truly obsolete now.
Compare ( for ex.) John 3:16
John 3:16
King James Version
John 3:16
“¶ For God so loued þe world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.”
1611 King James Version (KJV
John 3:16
King James Version ( modified)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.To the 1382 Wycliffe translation:
| 16 | For God louede so the world, that he yaf his `oon bigetun sone, that ech man that bileueth in him perische not, but haue euerlastynge lijf. |
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I'm not a huge fan of the KJV, because I sometimes find it difficult to read, but I admire its influence on our language. It IS a beautiful translation that has nourished countless faithful, for that I am grateful.
Since I am Catholic, I use the New American Bible or New Jerusalem Bible regularly, or any other approved translation from my Church.
Since I am Catholic, I use the New American Bible or New Jerusalem Bible regularly, or any other approved translation from my Church.
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Thanks for the thoughtful replies about the KJV. I wasn't thinking about that version of the bible but I can now see how I shouldn't have entitled this thread "KJV".
What I meant to bring up is how some people actually speak, or try to speak, in King James English. And the to the best of my knowledge King James style speaking is around 700 years old. What's the reason for using it?
What I meant to bring up is how some people actually speak, or try to speak, in King James English. And the to the best of my knowledge King James style speaking is around 700 years old. What's the reason for using it?
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Personally? As a young (30 year old) American, I don’t see many people speak that way. Especially in the Midwest where most people speak clearly and plainly.
Maybe people from other areas and countries have a different experience?
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In some American Churches, old English phrases might be used like in the Lord’s Prayer but that’s about it. This style of English is still around 400 years old though.
Even the Mayflower Compact of the 1620 Plymouth Colony is fairly understandable now.
The language of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are basically understandable. The technical aspects of these documents can be challenging but that is a different matter.
Look at the 1863 Gettysburg Address of Abraham Lincoln. It is sophisticated, brief but still comprehensible even if needs to be read carefully.
My ancestry is Arabic and American colonist. When I was a kid in the early 1970s, I never heard anyone in our families speaking using words like “thou” or “thee” .
Even the Mayflower Compact of the 1620 Plymouth Colony is fairly understandable now.
The language of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution are basically understandable. The technical aspects of these documents can be challenging but that is a different matter.
Look at the 1863 Gettysburg Address of Abraham Lincoln. It is sophisticated, brief but still comprehensible even if needs to be read carefully.
My ancestry is Arabic and American colonist. When I was a kid in the early 1970s, I never heard anyone in our families speaking using words like “thou” or “thee” .
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David Lamb
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I don't know. It seems particularly apparent in prayer meetings. For example, I remember a dear Christian brother, now with the Lord, who in prayer referred to people who were ill as those who were "laid on one side on a bed of sickness."
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Yes, I had a college professor in a maybe Christian college who used to pray "...as we pillow our heads in slumber..." as class ended and he wished us the best for the upcoming night.
I think this stuff, as minor as it may seem, might actually be pretty important. As with the experience you referred to, people seem to go KJ English only uner certain circumstances, pretty much connected to church and gatherings of fellow believers.
Aren't we expected to be who we are, in truth and all the time? Why slip on KJ English as though it was some kind of vestiment? Well, I'd suggest that maybe unconsciously, people different when they use that language. More spiritual? More connected to God?
I obviously can't speak for them, but I'd love to hear what they've got to say. When I've had a chance to bring this up in person all I've got back is sort of blank faces.
I think this stuff, as minor as it may seem, might actually be pretty important. As with the experience you referred to, people seem to go KJ English only uner certain circumstances, pretty much connected to church and gatherings of fellow believers.
Aren't we expected to be who we are, in truth and all the time? Why slip on KJ English as though it was some kind of vestiment? Well, I'd suggest that maybe unconsciously, people different when they use that language. More spiritual? More connected to God?
I obviously can't speak for them, but I'd love to hear what they've got to say. When I've had a chance to bring this up in person all I've got back is sort of blank faces.
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Most people who speak and pray using KJV vocabulary do so reflexively. They may not be open to reflecting on why much less be willing to share. It can be that they feel this usage reflects the piety they feel. I would be reluctant to ask one to explain himself as I do not see it so much as pretension as a way one chooses to express the reverence he may have in his heart.
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Tuur
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Touching the question of who yet doth speak in such a guise, seek ye out William Shakespeare's Star Wars: Verily, A New Hope. In sooth, it doth exist.
In a more serious vein, it persists because it's in public domain and there have been some real "winners" when it comes to English translations of the bible.
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jas3
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Using different language set aside for prayer isn't changing who you are. Vestments are actually a good example; the priest or pastor doesn't change who he is by putting on vestments, but vestments are a recognition that he's doing something that is set apart for God. Similarly, using more formal English in prayer and worship is a way of setting those things apart from our more casual daily life.
When you're raised praying that way, it seems like such common sense that you struggle to grasp how someone couldn't understand it. It's like being asked why you should dress nicely for church or treat the Bible with some amount of reverence. These things used to be common sense; the question just wouldn't have been asked.
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If people choose to speak or act during church, prayer meetings, bible studies, and so on, in a manner that's not how they normally conduct themselves I'd like to suggest there's the actual possibility of a problem.
Holiness and piety are not things that change when we speak in KJ English; they aren't things that we can create or enhance by changing the form of English we use.
What might the implications be of feeling we can?
I think this would usually be a subconscious experience but that actually would make it more serious, not less.
Holiness and piety are not things that change when we speak in KJ English; they aren't things that we can create or enhance by changing the form of English we use.
What might the implications be of feeling we can?
I think this would usually be a subconscious experience but that actually would make it more serious, not less.
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jas3
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Why? It's natural to change how formally you act depending on the circumstances.
They aren't things that change when we take our shoes off, either, but God told Moses to take his shoes off in recognition of holy ground.
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jas3
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That's not the comparison I was making. Calling someone "your honor" is weird in everyday life, but is perfectly acceptable and even expected in court. Calling your friend "sir" would be weirdly formal, but it's appropriate when addressing a superior or a stranger. We use different levels of formality, different kinds of language, based on our circumstances.
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David Lamb
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But we are not discussing the formality of the language used, but the age. One can speak formally in modern English, and although I haven't heard anybody do so, I am sure one could speak informally using 1611 language.
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David Lamb
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But both "Your honour" and "sir" are used in contemporary English. That is nothing to do with using language from over 400 years ago in prayer.
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