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eclipsenow · 2025-12-03T16:47:29-0600

keras said:
To think Isaiah wrote about past events in Chapter 49, or any other scripture is wrong. He was a Prophet not a historian.

Too simplistic. There's a LOT Isaiah was writing about.

Questions to ask when reading OT prophets

Who was the prophet speaking to and about? The unimaginably far future in the end times - or his own generation? What is the context, and how do you know?
What is the issue of the day? EG: Eg: Many prophets warned that OTHER, OLDER prophecies were coming true in THEIR generation!
Are they encouraging their generation? Rebuking them? Or a bit of both?
See Deuteronomy 4, Israel’s ‘pep talk’ just before Israel is about to embark on colonising Canaan. In Deut 4:27, God warns that if they turn to idolatry, he will “scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the Lord will drive you.” That is a horrible thing to say in what is meant to be their “pep talk!”
But there’s hope even then. Note that Israel’s fall into exile, and then hopeful repentance, is all so unimaginably distant in the future from THEIR PERSPECTIVE that Deut 4:30 refers to it as “then in later days…”
Sadly, as the centuries pass, we see the predictable arrogance of Israel as they dismiss these warnings. So we enter the age of the Judges calling them to repent, then the Kings, and then Israel’s wickedness ripens to the point where God must harvest them. We see the rise of the prophets in opposition to ungodly kings, and their message of judgement crashing into Israel’s hedonistic, presumptuous culture.
But even in the midst of this dire warning of judgement, there is hope! The prophets are reminding Israel of Deuteronomy 30:4-5! “ Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.“
As we read these prophecies, are there an existing body of symbols and metaphors that prophet is drawing on?
When is the prophet speaking? How long was their ministry? Were they writing Just before the Assyrians attacked the northern Kingdom of Israel?
Or just before or during the Babylonians attacked the southern kingdom of Judah - and Jerusalem and the temple itself!?
Otherwise, we risk ripping the passage out of context and slapping it down over modern concerns to prove our OWN AGENDA!

Unless we ask these basic questions first - we are not practicing good reading - let alone good Bible study or scholarship.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T18:48:47-0600

Guojing said:
If you read that scripture verse carefully, it was given to a nation, not nations.

When it says the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruit the greek word is ethnos ethne which when referring to non israelite peoples elsewhere gets rendered as gentiles which is what Jesus was saying. the kingdom of God will be taken from you people following the abrahamic mosiac religion and given to uncircumcized pagans that have never known the God of abraham and never read the torah. it is a good spot to render the word as gentiles but not a single english bible does it. i consider it to be propaganda

keras · 2025-12-03T19:16:04-0600

eclipsenow said:
Questions to ask when reading OT prophets

Typical preterist avoidance of any possibility that Prophecy could apply to the present time.
Actually, most Prophesies could have applied to any time after they were given, but as most have not yet happened we must expect their fulfilment at some future time.

The context of Isaiah 49, is not the ancient Israelites. It is to the peoples from the far distant coasts and islands; plainly meaning the modern Christian peoples. THEY are the children born while the Land of Zion is bereaved by having godless inhabitants. Who will soon be all gone; Zephaniah 1:14-18

Guojing · 2025-12-03T19:22:06-0600

samaus123456789 said:
When it says the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruit the greek word is ethnos ethne which when referring to non israelite peoples elsewhere gets rendered as gentiles which is what Jesus was saying.

Are you aware that, in scripture, the singular nation only refers to the nation of Israel?

And that, whenever gentile nations are referred to, it is always nations in the plural?

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T19:31:03-0600

Guojing said:
Are you aware that, in scripture, the singular nation only refers to the nation of Israel?

And that, whenever gentile nations are referred to, it is always nations in the plural?

◄ Matthew 21:43 ►

“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

That is Jesus talking to the Israelites saying he will give the kingdom of God to non Israelite peoples.

Guojing · 2025-12-03T19:34:10-0600

samaus123456789 said:
◄ Matthew 21:43 ►

“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

That is Jesus talking to the Israelites saying he will give the kingdom of God to non Israelite peoples.

I am referring to the KJV.

But again here, you are thinking a people refer to gentiles, which is also not in the passage

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T19:56:06-0600

Guojing said:
Are you aware that, in scripture, the singular nation only refers to the nation of Israel?

And that, whenever gentile nations are referred to, it is always nations in the plural?

you are saying goy ethnos is only ever used when referring to israel and never goyim or ethne?
and always the opposite for non israelite nations?

Douggg · 2025-12-03T19:57:56-0600

samaus123456789 said:
◄ Matthew 21:43 ►

“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

That is Jesus talking to the Israelites saying he will give the kingdom of God to non Israelite peoples.

Hi samaus,

kjv
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

In context, Jesus was speaking to the scribes, chief priests, and Pharisees at the time. Jesus referred to the scriptures in verse 42, about their rejection of him (Jesus). So the kingdom of God was taken from them because they produced no spiritual fruit. They did not promote the gospel of salvation in Christ Jesus.

Another nation of Jews, Israel in the end times, will produce the fruit, when they turn to the gospel of salvation and Jesus in the middle of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Here is the text of their turning to gospel of salvation and Jesus...

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Currently, the vast majority of Jews reject Jesus and the gospel of salvation. But that is going to change after they go through a bad experience of thinking the Antichrist is their King of Israel messiah (for the most part of the first half of the 7 years).
-------------------------------------------

btw the loud voice in heaven in Revelation 12:10 - that is going to be coming from us, resurrected/raptured Christians.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T20:01:04-0600

Douggg said:
Hi samaus,

kjv
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

In context, Jesus was speaking to the scribes, chief priests, and Pharisees at the time. Jesus referred to the scriptures in verse 42, about their rejection of him (Jesus). So the kingdom of God was taken from because they produced no spiritual fruit. They did not promote the gospel of salvation in Christ Jesus.

Another nation of Jews, Israel in the end times, will produce the fruit, when they turn to the gospel of salvation and Jesus in the middle of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Here us the text of their turning to gospel of salvation and Jesus...

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Currently, the vast majority of Jews reject Jesus and the gospel of salvation. But that is going to change after they go through a bad experience of thinking the Antichrist is their King of Israel messiah (for the most part of the first half of the 7 years).

no that is wrong. he was saying the kingdom of heaven would go out to anyone whether circumcized or not via faith in Jesus which happened with his death burial reserrection then ascension then pentecost then God destroys the OT kingdom and kills the people that killed Jesus 70 ad.
only christians are jews israel etc now not the synagogue of satan. but i am mainly interested in what this other person was saying about the words nations/gentiles.

Guojing · 2025-12-03T20:01:26-0600

samaus123456789 said:
you are saying goy ethnos is only ever used when referring to israel and never goyim or ethne?
and always the opposite for non israelite nations?

I prefer to use the KJV in English.

The same greek word can mean different things in different context, depending on the surrounding words.

That does not mean all the different words can apply at the same time in English.

You can also use common sense to understand that meaning of Matthew 21:43 cannot be to gentiles.

Which is, if you recall the final question the 11 asked Christ, just before he ascended to heaven, which is found in Acts 1:6,

do you notice Christ did not reply with

"Why do you ask such a stupid question about the kingdom being restored to Israel, when I already told you it will be given to gentiles in Matthew 21:43?"

which would have been the case, if your understanding about Matthew 21:43 was correct instead.

Guojing · 2025-12-03T20:01:51-0600

samaus123456789 said:
no that is wrong. he was saying the kingdom of heaven would go out to anyone whether circumcized or not via faith in Jesus which happened with his death burial reserrection then ascension then pentecost then God destroys the OT kingdom and kills the people that killed Jesus 70 ad.
only christians are jews israel etc now not the synagogue of satan. but i am mainly interested in what this other person was saying about the words nations/gentiles.

You can also use common sense to understand that meaning of Matthew 21:43 cannot be to gentiles.

Which is, if you recall the final question the 11 asked Christ, just before he ascended to heaven, which is found in Acts 1:6,

do you notice Christ did not reply with

"Why do you ask such a stupid question about the kingdom being restored to Israel, when I already told you it will be given to gentiles in Matthew 21:43?"

which would have been the case, if your understanding about Matthew 21:43 was correct instead.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T20:07:52-0600

Guojing said:
You can also use common sense to understand that meaning of Matthew 21:43 cannot be to gentiles.

Which is, if you recall the final question the 11 asked Christ, just before he ascended to heaven, which is found in Acts 1:6,

do you notice Christ did not reply with

"Why do you ask such a stupid question about the kingdom being restored to Israel, when I already told you it will be given to gentiles in Matthew 21:43?"

which would have been the case, if your understanding about Matthew 21:43 was correct instead.

I have a thread on the kingdom of Israel being restored on Pentecost. Which is what Acts was about Matthew 21:43 you think he is saying the kingdom of God will be taken from you Israelites, and given to Israelites? In the OT someone had to cut their penis to join the Abrahamic Mosaic religion. Anyone could join, and become a Jew or Israel. Same in the NT except it is spiritual circumcision then someone can become a Jew or Israel via belief in Jesus Christ. Mathew 21 parable of the wicked vineyard tenants (it is in Isaiah as well) is about the Israelites being put in charge of the OT religion, and they killed the righteous ones amongst them telling them to turn back to the God of Abraham, and stop sinning then they killed the heir to the kingdom Jesus so God was going to kill them (70 AD), and take the kingdom from them which happened with Jesus death burial resurrection saved by grace through faith not via the works of the law of Moses so yes Jesus is saying the kingdom will be taken from you people in charge of the OT temple based covenant and given to non Israelite Greco Roman pagans via belief in Jesus. It is a great spot to render the word gentile but not english bibles do.

Douggg · 2025-12-03T20:10:43-0600

samaus123456789 said:
no that is wrong. he was saying the kingdom of heaven would go out to anyone whether circumcized or not via faith in Jesus which happened with his death burial reserrection then ascension then pentecost then God destroys the OT kingdom and kills the people that killed Jesus 70 ad.
only christians are jews israel etc now not the synagogue of satan. but i am mainly interested in what this other person was saying about the words nations/gentiles.

I agree that we Christians are inheritors to the kingdom of God.

But we have not become Jews, nor Israel, by virtual of believing in Jesus.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T20:13:46-0600

Douggg said:
I agree that we Christians are inheritors to the kingdom of God.

But we have no become Jews, nor Israel, by virtual of believing in Jesus.

based on the bible yes we have. romans 2 28 29, galatians 6 16, 3 29, romans 9 8. there is no other way to covenant with the God of abraham other than belief in jesus. cutting the penis wont do it anymore nor will following the letter of the law of moses, physical ancestry never did do it in the written torah although the leaven of the pharisees in the nt in some cases seem to be saying they thought physical ancestry did it. the synagogue of satan are not jews or israel (based on the bible). they have non biblical definitions of jew israel abraham covenant etc- but they are lying- they are the synagogue of satan (according to jesus).

Douggg · 2025-12-03T20:21:03-0600

Hi @samaus123456789,

What nation will be attacked by the Gog/Magog army in Ezekiel 39 ? It says Israel in the text. Ezekiel 39:2-7.

Ezekiel 39 gives the time line framework of the Jews coming to believe in Jesus.

Gog/Magog
then the seven years, Ezekiel 39:9
then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
then Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth, Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

That verse is not talking about us Christians, as we already know who Jesus is.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T20:24:10-0600

Douggg said:
Hi @samaus123456789,

What nation will be attacked by the Gog/Magog army in Ezekiel 39 ? It says Israel in the text. Ezekiel 39:2-7.

Ezekiel 39 gives the time line framework of the Jews coming to believe in Jesus.

Gog/Magog
then the seven years, Ezekiel 39:9
then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
the Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to this earth, Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

That verse is not talking about us Christians, as we already know who Jesus is.

ezekiel 38, 39 written in the 500s bc happened in esther around 480 bc. the prophecy says let us attack people that have just come back from other lands and are living in cities without walls and gates. in esther they had just come back from babylon (515 bc), and had rebuilt the temple but not the walls and gates which happens in ezra nehemiah 444 bc. the prophecy has israels enemies coming against them but then all of a sudden israel is burying their enemies like in esther they have enemies then they turn things around and kill all their enemies. there is some language association between gog and haman the agatite too.

Guojing · 2025-12-03T20:29:00-0600

samaus123456789 said:
Which is what Acts was about Matthew 21:43 you think he is saying the kingdom of God will be taken from you Israelites, and given to Israelites?

It is taken away from the nation of Israel, and given to a remnant of that nation who believes that Christ is their promised Messiah, which is the little flock (Luke 12:32), that part of natural Israel that is considered true Israel in the eyes of God (Romans 9:6-13).

That is what I am saying.

samaus123456789 · 2025-12-03T20:43:35-0600

Guojing said:
It is taken away from the nation of Israel, and given to a remnant of that nation who believes that Christ is their promised Messiah, which is the little flock (Luke 12:32), that part of natural Israel that is considered true Israel in the eyes of God (Romans 9:6-13).

That is what I am saying.

he meant it was going to be given to people outside the OT religion without the need for physical circumcision, animal sacrifice, levites, stoning to death, temple etc which happened since Jesus. that OT religion has been gone 2000 years now.

Guojing · 2025-12-03T20:46:35-0600

samaus123456789 said:
he meant it was going to be given to people outside the OT religion without the need for physical circumcision, animal sacrifice, levites, stoning to death, temple etc which happened since Jesus. that OT religion has been gone 2000 years now.

If Jesus meant that way, his reply to their question in Acts 1:6 would have been

"Why do you ask such a stupid question about the kingdom being restored to Israel, when I already told you it will be given to "people outside the OT religion without the need for physical circumcision, animal sacrifice, levites, stoning to death, temple etc"

Do you understand my point?

Douggg · 2025-12-03T20:50:05-0600

samaus123456789 said:
ezekiel 38, 39 written in the 500s bc happened in esther around 480 bc.

No, Ezekiel 38-39 has not happened yet. The proof is in Ezekiel 39:11, there will be a mass grave site in Israel named the valley of Hamongog.

No such site exists in Israel.

Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16, Gog/Magog to happen in the latter days, latter years.

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Questions to ask when reading OT prophets​

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Questions to ask when reading OT prophets​

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Questions to ask when reading OT prophets

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