The NEA is pushing far left teaching upon children

BCP1928 · 2025-11-28T08:43:41-0600

The Righterzpen said:
For the people who want to continue making money off of these “treatments” of course their data is going to be skewed! If you don’t think big pharma’s “studies” fudge data; take a look at all nonsense that went on with Covid.

Sex reassignment surgery was tried by Harvard back in the 60’s and they were such a dismal failure (particularly regarding the psychiatric conditions of the patients) that they stopped doing them because too many patients were committing suicide.

And do you think the psychiatric condition of people with the disorder has changed that much in 60 years? I don’t believe for a hot second that the data you’re reading is accurate.

Sexual reassignment surgery goes back to at least Roman times. It didn't become widely know in modern times until the 1950s.

Christine Jorgensen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PloverWing · 2025-11-28T09:17:05-0600

BCP1928 said:
Sexual reassignment surgery goes back to at least Roman times.

Are you sure? I didn't think much surgery at all was possible that long ago, beyond things like very quick amputations. Did the Romans have this kind of surgical skill?

(You're not just talking about castration, are you?)

BCP1928 · 2025-11-28T09:38:54-0600

PloverWing said:
Are you sure? I didn't think much surgery at all was possible that long ago, beyond things like very quick amputations. Did the Romans have this kind of surgical skill?

(You're not just talking about castration, are you?)

No, I understand that it was vaginoplasty. The point is, that transition surgery was not just invented by the Biden administration.

Gender-affirming surgery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

RileyG · 2025-11-28T10:12:55-0600

BCP1928 said:
Because if you interacted at work with a person who appeared to be female but was actually male you would go to Hell?

No. Good grief

BCP1928 said:
But gender identity often explains gender role choices. And suppression of those choices may cause psychological stress which can be relieved by taking up the entire social role of the opposite gender. Why people think this is an existential threat to the Republic is beyond me.

No. It’s more about mental health than being a threat.

Stopped_lurking said:
So how is pronouns determined by sex then? You don't observe sex directly.

Sex and gender are (mostly) related.

RileyG · 2025-11-28T10:13:33-0600

BCP1928 said:
No, I understand that it was vaginoplasty. The point is, that transition surgery was not just invented by the Biden administration.

Gender-affirming surgery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It’s become much more common nowadays. It used to be incredibly, incredibly rare.

Stopped_lurking · 2025-11-28T10:36:59-0600

RileyG said:
Sex and gender are (mostly) related.

Yes, but you can still not directly observe sex. So you look at something that at best correlates with sex, but it correlates even better with gender, IMO. So why should I switch to using sex for determining what pronouns to use, and how would I do it? How do you use sex to determine what pronouns to use, when sex is not available to you in most interactions with others?

A2SG · 2025-11-28T10:37:36-0600

RileyG said:
It’s become much more common nowadays. It used to be incredibly, incredibly rare.

Largely due to advances in medical care and treatment.

-- A2SG, science marches on!

PloverWing · 2025-11-28T11:11:03-0600

Stopped_lurking said:
Yes, but you can still not directly observe sex. So you look at something that at best correlates with sex, but it correlates even better with gender, IMO. So why should I switch to using sex for determining what pronouns to use, and how would I do it? How do you use sex to determine what pronouns to use, when sex is not available to you in most interactions with others?

To be fair, there are secondary sex characteristics one can observe without anyone taking their pants off. When I meet someone, I make an initial guess about their sex based on things like facial hair, voice pitch, and so on.

As to the question of whether we should categorize people by their bodies (sex) or who they are inside (gender), I generally base my pronoun use on gender rather than sex, if the other person has told me their gender.

Say it aint so · 2025-11-28T11:24:30-0600

rjs330 said:
There is no reliable evidence that it reduces suicide rates.

The Righterzpen said:
"Gender affirming care" (According to Medicare data) increases suicide stats by double compared to "cis gender" population.
Another stat I saw cited that almost 20% of 10 year post op transgender individuals commit suicide. (40% attempt) I think that may be the HIGHEST suicide rate in any population. (At last it's the highest stat I've ever seen.)

Suicide rates general populations:
(Veterans = 14%)
(Police = .021%)
(Incarcerated in state or federal prisons = 8%)

Disparities in Suicidality by Gender Identity Among Medicare Beneficiaries - PMC

Suicidality is higher for gender minorities than the general population, yet little is known about suicidality in disabled or older adult gender minorities. This study used 2009–2014 Medicare claims to identify people with gender identity–related ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

RileyG said:
There's been many cases of trans teens who committed suicide after receiving so-called gender affirming care or socially transitioning or had affirming parents. Something tells me it's not as helpful as some claim.

Suicide-Related Outcomes Following Gender-Affirming Treatment: A Review

Abstract

Gender-affirming treatment remains a topic of controversy; of particular concern is whether gender-affirming treatment reduces suicidality. A narrative review was undertaken evaluating suicide-related outcomes following gender-affirming surgery, hormones, and/or puberty blockers. Of the 23 studies that met the inclusion criteria, the majority indicated a reduction in suicidality following gender-affirming treatment; however, the literature to date suffers from a lack of methodological rigor that increases the risk of type I error. There is a need for continued research in suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment that adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity and treatment, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing and reducing factors. There is also a need for future systematic reviews given the inherent limitations of a narrative review. There may be implications on the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed.

Changes in Suicidality among Transgender Adolescents Following Hormone Therapy: An Extended Study

Results

Suicidality significantly declined from pretreatment to post-treatment (F[1, 426] = 34.63, P < .001, partial η2 = 0.075). This effect was consistent across sex assigned at birth, age at start of therapy, and treatment duration.

Conclusions

HT was associated with clinically meaningful reductions in suicidality over time, extending prior findings with a larger sample and longer follow-up. These study findings provide clinical evidence supporting the mental health benefits of timely access to HT in this population.

What I asked is "Now suppose the implementation of those gender affirming actions reduce suicide rates. If it does, is there more empathic value in that or just get rid of them regardless?" So forget about the studies for a second, If gender affirming care led to lower suicide rates would that be enough for those who are not supportive to those actions to reconsider?

RileyG · 2025-11-28T12:08:45-0600

A2SG said:
Largely due to advances in medical care and treatment.

-- A2SG, science marches on!

I doubt that.

Hans Blaster · 2025-11-28T12:13:12-0600

RileyG said:
I doubt that.

You doubt that gender reassingment surgery is more common now than 70 years ago because medical practices have improved? Are we getting your assertion correct?

What have you to back that claim (if it is your claim) as it seems rather obvious that improved medical technique is a major factor.

RileyG · 2025-11-28T12:15:56-0600

Hans Blaster said:
You doubt that gender reassingment surgery is more common now than 70 years ago because medical practices have improved? Are we getting your assertion correct?

What have you to back that claim (if it is your claim) as it seems rather obvious that improved medical technique is a major factor.

Ohhhh that makes more sense. I read that wrong.

rambot · 2025-11-28T12:20:17-0600

PloverWing said:
To be fair, there are secondary sex characteristics one can observe without anyone taking their pants off. When I meet someone, I make an initial guess about their sex based on things like facial hair, voice pitch, and so on.

As to the question of whether we should categorize people by their bodies (sex) or who they are inside (gender), I generally base my pronoun use on gender rather than sex, if the other person has told me their gender.

[my emphasis].

As opposed to what is "inside", gender is the outward expression (what society sees us as) and what we want society to see us as.

Perhaps you are referring to inside because people will say they "Feel" a certain way?

PloverWing · 2025-11-28T12:52:31-0600

rambot said:
[my emphasis].

As opposed to what is "inside", gender is the outward expression (what society sees us as) and what we want society to see us as.

Perhaps you are referring to inside because people will say they "Feel" a certain way?

The terminology as I hear it used is this: Gender identity is what you feel inside (male/masculine, female/feminine, neither). Gender expression is how you present yourself to the world. I can't think of a common term for how the world treats us in response to our biological sex and gender identity and expression, but that's certainly part of the picture, so maybe there's a phrase I'm not thinking of. (Socialization is part of it but not all of it.)

Gender identity is what I have in mind.

rambot · 2025-11-28T12:54:45-0600

PloverWing said:
The terminology as I hear it used is this: Gender identity is what you feel inside (male/masculine, female/feminine, neither). Gender expression is how you present yourself to the world. I can't think of a common term for how the world treats us in response to our biological sex and gender identity and expression, but that's certainly part of the picture, so maybe there's a phrase I'm not thinking of. (Socialization is part of it but not all of it.)

Gender identity is what I have in mind.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarity.

Stopped_lurking · 2025-11-28T13:16:40-0600

PloverWing said:
To be fair, there are secondary sex characteristics one can observe without anyone taking their pants off. When I meet someone, I make an initial guess about their sex based on things like facial hair, voice pitch, and so on.

Yes, but they all overlap between the sexes (yes, even breast tissue and facial hair). Without social cues like fashion, hairstyle, speech patterns, friend gruops, partner choice and mannerisms those lead people to guess wrongly quite often.

Many of the secondary sex characteristics are also amenable to medical or surgical interventions. Are those who say that sex is used to determine pronoun use saying that if the secondary sex characteristics line up well enough with their expectation then the preferred pronouns should be used? @RileyG ?

So the you can't change your sex crowd are not talking about secondary sex characteristics, I guess?

PloverWing said:
As to the question of whether we should categorize people by their bodies (sex) or who they are inside (gender), I generally base my pronoun use on gender rather than sex, if the other person has told me their gender.

That is nice

The NEA is pushing far left teaching upon children

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Suicide-Related Outcomes Following Gender-Affirming Treatment: A Review​

Changes in Suicidality among Transgender Adolescents Following Hormone Therapy: An Extended Study​

Results​

Conclusions​

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Suicide-Related Outcomes Following Gender-Affirming Treatment: A Review

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