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Eve and the Fallacy of Moral Choices

BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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For example, what does “lawlessness was already at work within both Adam…Eve” mean?
Cited Mark 7:21-23, that evil thoughts defile everyone, A&E included, and referenced by Paul here for example:

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

In addition to sin being "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

I know the drive to blame Adam and Eve and leave out the DEVIL from the equations is strong, and this happens when we are in denial of having the tempter in our own minds. It's a given principle in scripture.

Simply, there’s nothing in the plain text meaning or textual meaning of that Genesis verse claiming, alleging, inferring, or implying Eve had or experienced “lust.”
Just addressed with bling above if you want to browse it

In any case Eve was clearly contemplating BREAKING GODS COMMAND in her MIND prior to eating i.e. LAWLESS THOUGHTS against God's Command, even stating the command erroneously, adding to God's Words (another violation).

Let's just say that believers who only condemn Adam and Eve and leave the DEVIL, the TEMPTER out of the picture clearly missed the picture for them, and more than likely miss it for themselves as well, to this day
 
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Clare73

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Romans 7:7–11 is the classic passage where Paul identifies the dynamic that the giving of a law creates an occasion for sinful desire. To put it another way, the command itself provokes the impulse to violate it.
Sin as a reality precedes knowledge. Wrong actions are objectively wrong, even if the person does not yet know.
Moral responsibility begins with knowledge. Once awareness arrives, the person is accountable for the wrongdoing. This principle appears dozens of times in Scripture.
Legal guilt is tied to command + knowledge. The command creates the standard. Knowledge triggers accountability. Before knowledge, there is sin but not accountability.
Before existence of command, there is no sin of which to be guilty. There was no command between Adam and Moses.

'Where there is no law, there is no transgression." (Ro 4:15)
 
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bling

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As do I, for the devil and his messengers. That much I think most of us can agree on.
Since God has the power to send the Devil and his messengers to hell, why were they ever allowed to spent time on earth? What is their purpose for being here?
It may surprise you if you haven't actually studied this matter out, but just for kicks, do you know that in the entire Bible there is not one single named person said to be in hell now, or in the future?

Go figure. What everyone takes as a fact has no named person as and example.

And, again, just for kicks, not one named person is even threatened with such a fate in the entire Bible.

Again, go figure.
People who go to hell are to be forgotten, which being annihilated would help provide. So why have their names?
Well, you see, using your conclusion, it is God Himself who burns His Own children alive forever.

Is God some kind of sickO or what? Just think about what you're thinking here. It's bizarre.
I said they are annihilated, some sooner than later.

These people would be extremely unhappy in heaven, since they have repeatedly shown a discus for Charity and there is only charity in heaven. Earth has served its purpose and is gone, with only heaven with God and a place without God including annihilation left.
And you simply fail to SEE that people are blinded by the god of this world, just like we were. Uh, that would be THE DEVIL. And you just forgot that part and now only see and blame people. And GUESS WHO does that in people?

Uh, huh. Not you.
Man’s earthly objective drives everything (as it should), but you seem to have satan driving everything on earth, leaving man without an objective. The Devil is a tempter, but humans have free will to allow satan entry and allow him to stay.
It doesn't take a genius to connect the dots on the subject.

Lust of the flesh:
Gen 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food

Lust of the eyes:

Gen 6- it was pleasant to the eyes

The pride of life:

Gen 6- a tree to be desired to make one wise

And lust stems from:
John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do

Eve's sins are no different than the sin of anyone else: "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

But try as a person might to get anyone to actually see this connection is problematic when they are still in the grips.

Paul saw the connection quite clearly, showing Eve and the tempter IN MIND:

2 Cor. 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Satan not only operates in our minds thought temptations, he sins in words through our bodies, such as speaking through Peter to Jesus' face no less. Even entering the body of Judas to betray Jesus.

It's one of the most obvious things in the scriptures, but alas, not many really believe it happens to THEMSELVES. And in such Satan has successfully HIDDEN and SHIELDED himself. That's what THEY do "in people."

So you see, the opening post was about Eve, but it's really meant to pinpoint and isolate the enemy in us all.
If we are the victim and not the criminal, with satan being the criminal, then why Does God allow satan to continue to be around and in us?

Why did God punish Eve?
And again, that's just lack of knowledge of the scriptures on your part. Here for example we can quite easily connect DISOBEDIENCE to SATAN:

Eph. 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The dead giveaway however to spot the PERP is people who want to burn our neighbors alive forever.

There is no greater hatred of neighbors than that. And unfortunately that infection is quite well advanced in the "body" general
Why are humans being tortured here on earth with satan living in them?
 
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Clare73

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Since God has the power to send the Devil and his messengers to hell, why were they ever allowed to spent time on earth?
What is their purpose for being here?
See Ro 9:22-23.
 
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bling

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See Ro 9:22-23.
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?



Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?



Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?



Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Since God has the power to send the Devil and his messengers to hell, why were they ever allowed to spent time on earth? What is their purpose for being here?
There's many reasons, one of which is kind of awesome in Romans 11:32

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
People who go to hell are to be forgotten, which being annihilated would help provide. So why have their names?
There is not one single named person said to have that fate in the entire Bible nor is there one named person in the entire Bible even threatened with that fate.

Jesus is The Savior of the world, remember? Not some wannabe
I said they are annihilated, some sooner than later.

These people would be extremely unhappy in heaven
God kills, God makes alive. Blessed be the Name of the Lord

No one knows what life is going to be like apart from our current demonic influencers in any case so we have no idea what makes people happy or unhappy past this current life. That's just an excuse to have your neighbors and loved ones annihilated, which is the opposite of HOPE and LOVE for them all.
Man’s earthly objective drives everything (as it should), but you seem to have satan driving everything on earth, leaving man without an objective. The Devil is a tempter, but humans have free will to allow satan entry and allow him to stay.
Hmmm? Man's earthly objective? Are you in to works salvation or what?

And humans have no choice in temptations as in stopping them. Zero. No one is free from that NOR are they free from the defilement that comes from evil lawless thoughts. Mark 7:21-23 applies to everyone.
If we are the victim and not the criminal, with satan being the criminal, then why Does God allow satan to continue to be around and in us?

Why did God punish Eve?
God ALWAYS meant for there to be a first man/person and a last. 1 Cor. 15:45-49 lays out a basic principle of God's Operations, that being FIRST the natural, THEN the spiritual.

The habitations of Satan and devils are dying dust piles, you, I and everyone else inclusive.

Why are humans being tortured here on earth with satan living in them?
See Romans 11:32 cited previously.

The very first command God gave that we can read is that light would shine from the darkness.

His Light is LOVE in mankind, shining in the darkness of evil

2 Corinthians 4:6

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Gal. 4:1-3
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

We're supposed to have dominion OVER our adversary, not denial that we are bound to same in the flesh.

People who run around trying to damn everyone to hell who doesn't believe like them remain in the darkness of our adversary. Nothing personal. It happens to everyone. It' not even them doing it, but the beast they carry in their own hearts.
 
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biblelesson

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But you see none of these observations are even accurate. What is accurate is that the package of Adam and Eve came PREPACKAGED with FAULTS.

Paul outlined this clearly in 1 Cor. 15:42-46 showing us exactly the conditions that
Adam and “all” natural people are planted in. These 3 things also correlate to Eve’s built in flaws:

Planted in corruption
Planted in dishonor
Planted in weakness

Is there supposed to be some surprise if outcome of making decisions with those pre-existing conditions is not and can never be moral? We make every decision from those planted conditions. Basically being seeded in dung, within the darkness of earth, our own dust body.
There were no preexisting conditions in Adam and Eve. They were two pure beings that had free will. The sin came from the serpent.

Before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve were perfect beings, and had the right to eat from the tree of life. If there was any corruption in them, they would not have been given the right to eat from the tree of life.

But, when they exercised their free will, and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were filled with the wrong spirit. The spirit was Satan’s spirit that became apart of man.

As far as Planted in corruption, Planted in dishonor, Planted in weakness - this is speaking of man after Adam - man from the point of Adam sin, is born into corruption, etc. Through Adam, creation became corrupted.

If Eve had only eaten from the wrong tree, nothing would have happened to creation, because God created man; woman was made from man. It’s the man’s seed that became corrupt, therefore children born from the corrupted man’s seed is born into sin. Not the woman.

That’s why Jesus had to be born without the male seed, yet he still could be born through an untainted pure virgin and the Holy Ghost - God’s Holy Seed was placed in her.

That’s why the Bible tells us Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh - Likeness - He was born without man’s corrupted seed.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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There were no preexisting conditions in Adam and Eve.
Were they exempt from God's Words?

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Were they exempt from the Apostle's statement directly about Adam here?

1 Cor. 15:42-46
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This list of exemptions from God's Own Words and Apostle's teachings would have to go on at length and that is simply not true at all. They were no different than you, I and everyone else.

Before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve were perfect beings, and had the right to eat from the tree of life. If there was any corruption in them, they would not have been given the right to eat from the tree of life.
Did you even bother to read the opening post?

Eve clearly had lustful thoughts against God's Law of "do not eat or ELSE." Eve clearly had errant words, twisting God's command before eating. Adam had the "law" "do not eat OR ELSE" laid on him, which laws are made for sinners, 1 Tim. 1:9.

And the kicker was, though the sin transpired in their dust bodies Satan was involved up to his eyeballs, with a direct statement from God that the serpent DID IT. Will repeat, the SERPENT DID IT.
As far as Planted in corruption, Planted in dishonor, Planted in weakness - this is speaking of man after Adam - man from the point of Adam sin, is born into corruption, etc. Through Adam, creation became corrupted
Your circular reasoning doesn't cut it. And the main point of this exercise is not to blame Adam and Eve. Sins are not counted against people, per 2 Cor. 5:19. So there is only one direction left to point to and that is to SATAN.

I concede that Adam was God's son, so there is no blame to be had because of this status for Adam or any person subsequent to them.

But, when they exercised their free will, and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were filled with the wrong spirit. The spirit was Satan’s spirit that became apart of man.
There is no free will. God has bound everyone to disobedience, Adam and Eve most obviously included.

Disobedience is of the devil:

Eph. 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
If Eve had only eaten from the wrong tree, nothing would have happened to creation, because God created man; woman was made from man. It’s the man’s seed that became corrupt, therefore children born from the corrupted man’s seed is born into sin. Not the woman.
There are no exceptions to God's Words or being a sinner, bound to disobedience. Not for Adam, not for Eve, not for any person other than Jesus.

Jesus did not use His supposed free will to make Himself sinless either. He's always been sinless because He's God.

You seem to have a concocted position born of missing the real culprit in the pictures and blaming Adam and Eve while exonerating the DEVIL. Turn things around and you'll be fine and the fantasy positions will pass away.

I do smell a little cult type in your positional offering heavily leaning in the genetics department, which is a dead giveaway. SDA like.
 
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bling

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There's many reasons, one of which is kind of awesome in Romans 11:32

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
You agree that satan and his messengers are not in heaven, so there is or are reasons why satan is here and not in heaven.
There is not one single named person said to have that fate in the entire Bible nor is there one named person in the entire Bible even threatened with that fate.

Jesus is The Savior of the world, remember? Not some wannabe
It is very individualistic, I know I am heaven bound by having and keeping the indwelling Holy Spirit which is our guarantee for all God’s promises, but the Spirit in me as my personal guarantee is not to be a guarantee for you.

If we knew for certain some people who did go to hell, how would that help us?

We need to spend our time and energy, help individual in their choice for heaven, which can happen anytime before their death.

Yes Jesus is the savior for everyone, but not everyone is willing and wanting to humbly accepts God’s pure charity as charity. It is a transaction with a choice and not some just bestowed upon you because you are human.
God kills, God makes alive. Blessed be the Name of the Lord

No one knows what life is going to be like apart from our current demonic influencers in any case so we have no idea what makes people happy or unhappy past this current life. That's just an excuse to have your neighbors and loved ones annihilated, which is the opposite of HOPE and LOVE for them all.
You are pulling all free will choices away from humans and making them only victims of life here on earth. We allow satan to come in and we are responsible for our own sins and the sin of allowing satan control.

What we find out while we are here on this earth for a short time is: who desires and is willing to humbly accept help and become a helper. That is the free will choice we are making.
Hmmm? Man's earthly objective? Are you in to works salvation or what?
You are pulling all free will choices away from humans and making them only victims of life here on earth. We allow satan to come in and we are responsible for our own sins and the sin of allowing satan control.

What we find out while we are here on this earth for a short time is: who desires and is willing to humbly accept help and become a helper. That is the free will choice we are making.
And humans have no choice in temptations as in stopping them. Zero. No one is free from that NOR are they free from the defilement that comes from evil lawless thoughts. Mark 7:21-23 applies to everyone.
The temper sins in tempting, while the individual sins by yielding to the temptation.

Yes we all sin, but that helps us to realize the help we need and the fact we cannot control ourselves by ourselves.
God ALWAYS meant for there to be a first man/person and a last. 1 Cor. 15:45-49 lays out a basic principle of God's Operations, that being FIRST the natural, THEN the spiritual.

The habitations of Satan and devils are dying dust piles, you, I and everyone else inclusive.


See Romans 11:32 cited previously.

The very first command God gave that we can read is that light would shine from the darkness.

His Light is LOVE in mankind, shining in the darkness of evil

2 Corinthians 4:6

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Gal. 4:1-3
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

We're supposed to have dominion OVER our adversary, not denial that we are bound to same in the flesh.

People who run around trying to damn everyone to hell who doesn't believe like them remain in the darkness of our adversary. Nothing personal. It happens to everyone. It' not even them doing it, but the beast they carry in their own hearts.
I do not see God excusing all the evil people do with: “The devil made them do it”.

People love to blame someone else for their sins, so they will never have to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity, since they really deserved to be forgiven for their non-part.

If you do not accept being forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt created by your sins, than you will never obtain a huge unbelievable Love (Godly type Love). Luke 7
 
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biblelesson

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1 Cor. 15:42-46
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Most scriptures you referenced are taken out of context and are based on your own judgment of mankind - you use those scriptures to support you, not what they truly mean.
It would take too much time to correct all of what you have said, so I will only address this part!

Adam was in a natural body - that’s true. But, his body was not a corrupted body?

1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Before the fall, Adam had not undergone the change that would have happened if he had eaten from the Tree of Life. The Tree of life would have caused the change from a natural body to a spiritual body. But sin came in and the process from natural to spiritual was stopped. The tree of life would have changed Adam to a spiritual body that would live forever- that’s why, after Adam sinned, God had to put them out of the garden and block the way of the Tree of Life.
Genesis 3:22-24 KJV
22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”
23 “Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.”
24 “So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

So, now how would God fulfill His original plan for man to be a spiritual being like Himself? Man at this point of the fall had to be redeemed.

You must understand that before the fall, man did not have to be redeemed from anything. Redemption came because of sin.

Adam and all men that came after Adam was not supposed to stay as men/natural, but was supposed to be spiritual and live forever. The result of this sin or fall caused God to withdraw His Spirit from man. Genesis 6:3 KJV, “And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”

So now, man needs a redeemer. It’s the spiritual aspect of man that’s important- so how will it be accomplished now if the Tree of Life was blocked?
1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
So it is by Jesus Christ that man has been redeemed and made children of God by the Spirit- the Holy Spirit.

Redeemed from what? A fallen state in Adam.

So, if Adam was already corrupt, as you are implying, then what state did he fall from?
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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Most scriptures you referenced are taken out of context
IF we believe Jesus' statement that man shall live by every Word of God there is no such thing as taking anything out of context because everything applies to everyone
you use those scriptures to support you, not what they truly mean.
Well of course I use the scriptures for understandings of facts therein. There is no other way other than applying our own imaginations, if that's your preference?
It would take too much time to correct all of what you have said, so I will only address this part!

Adam was in a natural body - that’s true. But, his body was not a corrupted body?
Paul states how Adam was created, cited to you multiple times now. I really don't care if you accept those facts or not.

Adam was never meant to occupy a wet dust body for eternity anyway, per Paul.
1 Corinthians 15:44 KJV
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Before the fall, Adam had not undergone the change
Already showed Adam was a sinner just like the rest of us, from the moment he was created because it was never an account of just Adam or Eve, but the tempter tempting them within. You only see Adam and Eve. Not my problem that you can't seem to connect the dot of evil thoughts and evil words to the defilement they both showed before they ate, and that defilement was of the devil, a sin. Mark 7:21-23

A lot of freewillers mistake sin as being only the external act and that is not the case, per Jesus.

You may love your own story more than the scriptural account. And that's fine with me. I'm not the guardian of your mind or the ruler of your beliefs.

I just don't think they exist in scripture. I'm interested in what scripture says.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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You agree that satan and his messengers are not in heaven, so there is or are reasons why satan is here and not in heaven.
The "location" of Satan is not really divulged to us. We can pretty much presume it to be in the unseen arena, of adverse spirits, whatever and wherever that is. And since these bad actors act up in people, we can presume we're part of their habitation, per Mark 4:15 and other scriptures such as Luke 11:24 showing the unclean spirit considers man "his house." And of course the myriad of scriptures that show us in the Gospels Jesus engaging Satan and devils in people. One of the most obvious showings in the Gospels.
It is very individualistic, I know I am heaven bound by having and keeping the indwelling Holy Spirit which is our guarantee for all God’s promises, but the Spirit in me as my personal guarantee is not to be a guarantee for you.
I believe that 1 John 4:7 is true for every person, myself included and that Jesus is the Savior of the world, per the scriptures. I believe He Gets The Job Done too. Most don't. Most think Jesus fails.
If we knew for certain some people who did go to hell, how would that help us?
Were there a single named example of such a thing I might buy into it, but there's not one single named person given as an example out of potentially multiple BILLIONS of examples. Not even one named person even threatened with such a fate.

Plus the situation is compounded with difficulty because, scripturally, people are not just people. It's people and the tempter working against all of us, from within.

So I believe Jesus could look any of us in the eye, sentence us to our face to hell and it would apply to the TEMPTER. And I would rejoice then to hear those Words knowing unto whom they are directed. Not run from them like most do.
Yes Jesus is the savior for everyone, but not everyone is willing and wanting to humbly accepts God’s pure charity as charity. It is a transaction with a choice and not some just bestowed upon you because you are human.
Aka Jesus as a failure and people as a failure as well. Not my idea of A Real Savior of the world. Your view makes God held hostage by man's decisions and then, by their failures to save themselves, God is forced into a corner and must burn them alive forever.

I just don't believe that's the case for multiple reasons. And I certainly don't believe God burns His Own children alive forever or eternally kills them. To me, that's out there. Demonic.
You are pulling all free will choices away from humans and making them only victims of life here on earth. We allow satan to come in and we are responsible for our own sins and the sin of allowing satan control.

What we find out while we are here on this earth for a short time is: who desires and is willing to humbly accept help and become a helper. That is the free will choice we are making.
I'll give you an example of one problem with so called "freewill." It DEMANDS that God is ruled OUT of mankinds will and it DEMANDS that Satan's will is ruled out as well so the MAN's bad/sinful decisions only rest on the man. And both of those attempts are simply a leap that doesn't exist in scripture. I'd dare call the claim essentially Godless.

I believe scriptures are quite clear that there are actually 3 wills going on with everyone and that neither the Will of God nor the will of Satan can be ruled out of the picture for anyone.

That makes freewill a very muddled claim, at best. It's mostly used to justify believers and condemn blinded captives of the devils, such as with Adam and Eve. I don't need to move that way, trusting in God in Christ for every person, as we should.and we can remain in condemnation of every devil in man simultaneously. It's an actual working Gospel that can be taken into real life daily.

The temper sins in tempting, while the individual sins by yielding to the temptation.

Yes we all sin, but that helps us to realize the help we need and the fact we cannot control ourselves by ourselves.
Well, at least you manage to get the other party on the table, and that alone makes yours a fuzzy picture of blame to man, knowing full well that sins are not counted against people, 2 Cor. 5:19. IF we really believe that there is only one party left on the table to count sins against and that is the devil and his own.
I do not see God excusing all the evil people do with: “The devil made them do it”.
I've never said God excuses any evil. He doesn't. Nor does God forgive sin. God does count sins against the devils.

Nor did the devil make anyone do it. The devil does it. Satan does what Satan does. Sins in people.
People love to blame someone else for their sins, so they will never have to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity, since they really deserved to be forgiven for their non-part.

If you do not accept being forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt created by your sins, than you will never obtain a huge unbelievable Love (Godly type Love). Luke 7
No matter how much we might try to hang our heads and repent, that never made anyone sinless.

We are undoubtedly commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves and we don't have to concede or accept anything devils do in people, starting with the LOG in our own eye on this matter.
 
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