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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Daniel Martinovich

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However, Mount Zion has always represented rulership - David`s and the Lord`s.
What’s the point though? Did you read the link? The new Jerusalem is Gods people in the here and now on earth. Suffering and then triumphant on earth.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I agree with a lot that you write, but this all started with the appearance of the Messiah 2000 years ago. This work has been ongoing since the earthly ministry of Christ and will continue till the second coming. This is not merely a future event. Yes, God can move in a dramatic way among physical israelites today (to whatever degree), but His focus is the nations today (including Israel) and will continue until His climactic return.
The whole thing is a process that started way before Christ came. The only reason I mention the future is because that is where the process is leading us.
However, I don’t hold to any traditions of a second advent and especially when it involves a physical kingdom on earth.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The whole thing is a process that started way before Christ came. The only reason I mention the future is because that is where the process is leading us.
However, I don’t hold to any traditions of a second advent and especially when it involves a physical kingdom on earth.
You do not believe in a literal physical visible future return of Christ?
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I do believe in the literal- physical; coming, past present and future of the Lord. I do not believe in the traditions of men about second advent heralding the end of the world as we know it.
 
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Marilyn C

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What’s the point though? Did you read the link? The new Jerusalem is Gods people in the here and now on earth. Suffering and then triumphant on earth.
The Body of Christ is never called the New Jerusalem and it is not our inheritance but for the OT saints. (Heb. 11: 16)

Our inheritance in on the Lord`s own throne in the highest. (Rev. 3: 21)
 
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Guojing

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Several passages of Scripture clearly establish that the coming of Christ has brought an end to the Mosaic Law.

Exactly when do you think Peter, James and the other apostles realized that to be true?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul was saying that of the Jews - a person who is truly a Jew is one inwardly - by believing in Jesus.

Paul was not saying that a Gentile by virtue of believing in Jesus is a Jew.

The only thing that matters is if a person is a Christian or not. Believers in Jesus are Christians. Just go with that.
Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?
 
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Douggg

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1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
The term "Israeli tree" does not appear in the bible.

2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
The bible does not say that Gentiles have been brought into being citizens of Israel. Gentiles and Jews by virtue of believing in Jesus has been brought into being citizens of the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is spiritual. Differently, the Kingdom of Israel is an earthly nation chosen by God to be a part of his plan.

Jesus said in John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So why do you want to be part of the nation of Israel, and not a citizen of the Kingdom of God, Jesus's kingdom ?
 
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sovereigngrace

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The term "Israeli tree" does not appear in the bible.

What about the other four questions that you are ignoring?

In regards to the good olive tree, you are living in denial. I think you think if you keep repeating what you've been taught, that somehow that makes it a fact. That is not the way it works! Scripture refutes your claims.

The reality is: I have already shown how this is an Israeli tree and you have nothing to rebut it with apart from your own opinions. That sums up Dispensensationalism. Those who loosely (and wrongly) throw the Replacement Theology slur around at fellow believers are refuted by this analogy. They refuse to accept the plain sense of this illustration – that we New Testament Christians have been brought into the same spiritual tree as faithful Old Testament remnant Israel. There is therefore no replacement of anyone. There is only a joining together of God’s real people into one remnant flock. This current new covenant era has just seen a major demographic shift since the cross.

Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.

No one objective could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree here. Paul carefully describes the Jews who have been cut off as “natural branches” and being of “their own olive tree.” This shows us that this is an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent natural Israelis, and faith in Christ is the criterion for partaking in “the olive tree,” we can only be looking at the faithful genetic seed of Abraham who embraced Christ. This is the elect remnant of Israel. It was this holy remnant that remained attached to the Israeli olive tree that the Gentiles who believed now join in this new covenant era. This fulfills various Old Testament predictions that through Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

The bible does not say that Gentiles have been brought into being citizens of Israel. Gentiles and Jews by virtue of believing in Jesus has been brought into being citizens of the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is spiritual. Differently, the Kingdom of Israel is an earthly nation chosen by God to be a part of his plan.

Jesus said in John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

So why do you want to be part of the nation of Israel, and not a citizen of the Kingdom of God, Jesus's kingdom ?

Hello! The text teaches it. Do you not believe the inspired text? Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth [Gr. politeia or citizenship] of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby … Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens [Gr. sumpolites] with the saints, and of the household of God.”

Ephesians 2:19 shows that faithful Gentiles are “no more strangers and foreigners” (as in literal outsiders), but rather have become real active participating “fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Through Christ, they enjoy a common “citizenship of Israel.” They are no longer alienated. There is no distinction between them in Christ.

We should carefully note: to belong to “the citizenship of Israel” requires saving faith. This proves that we are looking at a spiritual organism. What is more, natural birthright means absolutely nothing in regards to participating in this spiritual entity. Significantly, the people of God of all races have been integrated into true Israel – spiritual Israel, not natural Christ-rejecting Israel. Those Jews that made up the membership of the early Church – faithful Israel, have been joined by faithful Gentiles throughout the nations under the select designation of “the citizenship of Israel.”

Paul the Apostle is careful in Ephesians 2 and 3 to show the tight unity and continuity between the largely Jewish Old Testament Church and the largely Gentile New Testament Church. He demonstrates how they are not two separate spiritual entities (as many modern writers try to suggest) but one harmonious whole. The lone spiritual edifice that holds the elect throughout time is symbolically described by the Apostle as both a building and a body. These are common representations for the elect elsewhere in Scripture.

Ephesians 2:21-22 shows how both are “builded together” and “framed together” into a “building,” “an holy temple” and “an habitation of God through the Spirit.” The people of God throughout time are frequently described throughout the New Testament in building terms. They are figuratively described in Scripture as a spiritual construction that is built up in Christ into “the temple of God” (1 Corinthians 3:16-17). “God's building” (1 Corinthians 3:9) – “built up in him and stablished in the faith” (Colossians 2:6-7) “as lively stones” – is “built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 2:5).
 
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sovereigngrace

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I do believe in the literal- physical; coming, past present and future of the Lord. I do not believe in the traditions of men about second advent heralding the end of the world as we know it.
What do you believe happens at the Second Advent?
 
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