The goal of Christianity in 'Not' to stop sinning!

A Devil's Advocate · Nov 2, 2025

The goal of Christianity is to know God. This is something you could spend ten lifetimes in pursuit of and still have barely scratched the surface of everything there is to know about God.

It amazes me the amount of wasted time and energy people put towards this goal of sinning less and ultimately, not sinning at all. Does anyone read the bible for what it actually says, or does everyone read it for what they've been told it says?

If I was to ask you; do you identify as your sinful nature, or do you identify as the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature, which would best describe you? Most likely it will be the later of the two. You are the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature. Which would align you with what Paul talked about in Rom 7:14-20.
Now say by the power of grey skull, I snap my fingers and suddenly you no longer have a sinful nature. Will you continue to do the evil you do not want to do, or will you only do the good you so desire to do? Obviously, the good you desire to do is all that you are going to do.
Okay then, in your pursuit to stop sinning, what is it you are trying so hard to improve on? The good you already desire to do, or the sinful nature?

The good you desire to do clearly needs no improvement since it already desires to do good. The sinful nature, on the other hand, cannot be improved on. Scripture is vividly clear on this. If it could be improved on, then Paul would not have wrote what he wrote in Rom 7, and the Gospel wouldn't have been necessary.

Before you try and tell me Paul is speaking of before he was saved... this is the real world, not some fantasy. At what point, before you were saved, did you ever struggle between doing the good that God desires you to do and doing evil? The truth is you didn't. You simply did whatever felt good to you in the moment.

Before salvation we are spiritually dead, separated from God. Without spiritual life, there is no desire to do the will of God. Without spiritual life, the desires of the flesh are what rules us. We have no desire, what so ever, to do the will of God. After receiving new life (spiritual life), that is when we are suddenly presented with a dilemma. To now do the will of God.
This new dilemma is the very struggle Paul talks about. And the reason Paul talks about it is to make it clear to his readers that the very idea that we can stop sinning is ridiculous. He states very clearly that sin resides in the flesh. Unless you live in the fantasy world I mentioned earlier, until the day you die, you will remain in the flesh. The flesh is corrupt as a result of sin. And until our corrupted flesh is destroyed, and we are given new non corrupted bodies, this struggle will remain.

The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Nov 5, 2025

A Devil's Advocate said:
The goal of Christianity is to know God. This is something you could spend ten lifetimes in pursuit of and still have barely scratched the surface of everything there is to know about God.

It amazes me the amount of wasted time and energy people put towards this goal of sinning less and ultimately, not sinning at all. Does anyone read the bible for what it actually says, or does everyone read it for what they've been told it says?

If I was to ask you; do you identify as your sinful nature, or do you identify as the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature, which would best describe you? Most likely it will be the later of the two. You are the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature. Which would align you with what Paul talked about in Rom 7:14-20.

It is difficult to accurately characterize the mindset you are describing here. You use the word, "identify as". I don't disagree with those words except that in today's usage it is often associated with falsely asserting and identity. But you are right to say we should adopt a mindset about ourselves that is consistent with who we have become in Christ. Romans 8:9 is meant to make our new identity in Christ clear:

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Ro 8:9)

And Romans 8:10 is intended to make it clear that the righteousness we have in Christ is detached from the corruption of the flesh:

If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Ro 8:10 NASB)

And that we should "identify as" who we are in Christ and live out our lives that way is spelled out explicitly in Romans 6:

"reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Ro 6:11),
"we also should walk in newness of life" (Ro 6:4), and
"present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead" (Ro 6:13).

It is no coincidence that Romans 6, 7, and 8 all tell is how to overcome this identity crisis.

A Devil's Advocate said:
Now say by the power of grey skull, I snap my fingers and suddenly you no longer have a sinful nature. Will you continue to do the evil you do not want to do, or will you only do the good you so desire to do? Obviously, the good you desire to do is all that you are going to do.

Okay then, in your pursuit to stop sinning, what is it you are trying so hard to improve on? The good you already desire to do, or the sinful nature?

Good point. The flesh cannot be reformed, and it does not become less sinful over time. In fact, it "grows corrupt" (Eph 4:22).

A Devil's Advocate said:
The good you desire to do clearly needs no improvement since it already desires to do good.

Yes! How can the "true righteousness and holiness" of the new man (Eph 4:24) be improved upon?

A Devil's Advocate said:
The sinful nature, on the other hand, cannot be improved on. Scripture is vividly clear on this. If it could be improved on, then Paul would not have wrote what he wrote in Rom 7, and the Gospel wouldn't have been necessary.

Before you try and tell me Paul is speaking of before he was saved... this is the real world, not some fantasy. At what point, before you were saved, did you ever struggle between doing the good that God desires you to do and doing evil? The truth is you didn't. You simply did whatever felt good to you in the moment.

Before salvation we are spiritually dead, separated from God. Without spiritual life, there is no desire to do the will of God. Without spiritual life, the desires of the flesh are what rules us. We have no desire, what so ever, to do the will of God. After receiving new life (spiritual life), that is when we are suddenly presented with a dilemma. To now do the will of God.
This new dilemma is the very struggle Paul talks about. And the reason Paul talks about it is to make it clear to his readers that the very idea that we can stop sinning is ridiculous. He states very clearly that sin resides in the flesh. Unless you live in the fantasy world I mentioned earlier, until the day you die, you will remain in the flesh. The flesh is corrupt as a result of sin. And until our corrupted flesh is destroyed, and we are given new non corrupted bodies, this struggle will remain.

The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.

Yes, you are right again. It is said clearly in Galatians 5:16-17 that the flesh leads us in one direction and the Spirit of God who lives in us leads us in a different direction and that to avoid fulfilling the desires of the flesh all we have to do is carry out the desires of the Spirit.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Ga 5:16–17)

Abraham1st · Nov 6, 2025

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Yes, you are right again. It is said clearly in Galatians 5:16-17 that the flesh leads us in one direction and the Spirit of God who lives in us leads us in a different direction and that to avoid fulfilling the desires of the flesh all we have to do is carry out the desires of the Spirit.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (Ga 5:16–17)

Advocate said: The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.

No you are both incorrect, your agreement does not make you both right. ( two wrongs does not make a right does it)

There is no goal to ultimate stop sinning, it is to be dead to sin, it is even clear on a corrupted forum. ( as for Romans 7, it also is of course talking to the ones yet in the flesh.)

As for Galatians 5, this is not unclear, it is CRYSTAL CLEAR, they are seeking law, and do not hear the word of faith, WE THROUGH THE SIRIT WAIT FOR THE HOPE OF RIGHTEOUSNES BY FAITH.

Who is hindering them from not OBEYING THE TRUTH.

They are called unto liberty, but they use it as occasion to the flesh, BITING AND DEVOURING ONE ANOTHER, CONSUMED OF NE ANOTHER, instead of LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF. ( they do not hear the word of faith, to WALK IN THE SPIRIT, as we see they were caught up in the LUST OF THE FLESH.)

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Nov 6, 2025

Abraham1st said:
No you are both incorrect, your agreement does not make you both right. ( two wrongs does not make a right does it)

There is no goal to ultimate stop sinning, it is to be dead to sin, it is even clear on a corrupted forum. ( as for Romans 7, it also is of course talking to the ones yet in the flesh.)

I don't see where I promoted stopping sinning as a goal. All I did in the section you cut from my remarks was to state that not gratifying the flesh is only possible if we walk in the Spirit. Am I missing something?

Abraham1st · Nov 6, 2025

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
I don't see where I promoted stopping sinning as a goal. All I did in the section you cut from my remarks was to state that not gratifying the flesh is only possible if we walk in the Spirit. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something, the description is for people who are not doing the truth, so if anyone is of the truth they do it, not talk about them...

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Your name seems to suggest you like to show the name of CHRIST.

NewLifeInChristJesus

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

A Devil's Advocate · Nov 6, 2025

Abraham1st said:
No you are both incorrect, your agreement does not make you both right. ( two wrongs does not make a right does it)

There is no goal to ultimate stop sinning, it is to be dead to sin, it is even clear on a corrupted forum. ( as for Romans 7, it also is of course talking to the ones yet in the flesh.)

I have to wonder if you actually read what it is you're responding to, or do you just glance over it and assume what it said?

I did not state that the goal is to stop sinning. In my understanding of the Gospel, sin is no longer even in the picture. It was dealt with by Christ. The matter is closed. That is my whole point with my post.

Yet Christianity as a whole, is still constantly focused on dealing with sin. That's what I was saying with my above statement. To be dead to sin, as you say, used in it's context means to be born again. To be saved, a believer who now has an incorruptible spirit. Someone who is now driven by the spirit and not by the flesh.

However, we live in the real world where this struggle to do the will of God or to satisfy the flesh is an ongoing reality.

As for Romans 7, Paul is speaking of himself as a believer. Before he was a believer, there was no struggle within him to do good, to do the will of God (love thy neighbour). This is very evident by the fact that before Paul was a believer, he had no issue persecuting and killing Christians. Those in the flesh could care less about the law of God, whether it is good or if it even exists.

Hawkins · Nov 7, 2025

The goal is to increase faith, sin will go away when faith grows correctly. The opposite is, faith without work is dead when faith reduces crossing the lowest mark.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Nov 7, 2025

Abraham1st said:
Yes, you are missing something, the description is for people who are not doing the truth, so if anyone is of the truth they do it, not talk about them...

No, that's not right. It doesn't say that nobody who walks in the Spirit ever indulges the lusts of the flesh.

Abraham1st said:
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Your name seems to suggest you like to show the name of CHRIST.

NewLifeInChristJesus

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I do not promote myself as Christ Jesus but rather points to Him as the giver and sustainer of life. From another thread:

Abraham1st said:
Do you mean in your brain, that the doctrine of godliness cannot be allowed.

It is obvious that these remarks do not come from walking in the Spirit since they are the results of indulging of the flesh.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like (Ga 5:19–21)

Lady Bug · 2025-11-20T15:47:11-0600

No, maybe not the first goal, but being a Christian should mean at least in part entrusting Jesus to deliver you not only from the penalty of sin but the power of sin too.

The Liturgist · 2025-11-20T20:25:22-0600

A Devil's Advocate said:
The goal of Christianity is to know God. This is something you could spend ten lifetimes in pursuit of and still have barely scratched the surface of everything there is to know about God.

It amazes me the amount of wasted time and energy people put towards this goal of sinning less and ultimately, not sinning at all. Does anyone read the bible for what it actually says, or does everyone read it for what they've been told it says?

If I was to ask you; do you identify as your sinful nature, or do you identify as the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature, which would best describe you? Most likely it will be the later of the two. You are the good you want to do but struggle with a sinful nature. Which would align you with what Paul talked about in Rom 7:14-20.
Now say by the power of grey skull, I snap my fingers and suddenly you no longer have a sinful nature. Will you continue to do the evil you do not want to do, or will you only do the good you so desire to do? Obviously, the good you desire to do is all that you are going to do.
Okay then, in your pursuit to stop sinning, what is it you are trying so hard to improve on? The good you already desire to do, or the sinful nature?

The good you desire to do clearly needs no improvement since it already desires to do good. The sinful nature, on the other hand, cannot be improved on. Scripture is vividly clear on this. If it could be improved on, then Paul would not have wrote what he wrote in Rom 7, and the Gospel wouldn't have been necessary.

Before you try and tell me Paul is speaking of before he was saved... this is the real world, not some fantasy. At what point, before you were saved, did you ever struggle between doing the good that God desires you to do and doing evil? The truth is you didn't. You simply did whatever felt good to you in the moment.

Before salvation we are spiritually dead, separated from God. Without spiritual life, there is no desire to do the will of God. Without spiritual life, the desires of the flesh are what rules us. We have no desire, what so ever, to do the will of God. After receiving new life (spiritual life), that is when we are suddenly presented with a dilemma. To now do the will of God.
This new dilemma is the very struggle Paul talks about. And the reason Paul talks about it is to make it clear to his readers that the very idea that we can stop sinning is ridiculous. He states very clearly that sin resides in the flesh. Unless you live in the fantasy world I mentioned earlier, until the day you die, you will remain in the flesh. The flesh is corrupt as a result of sin. And until our corrupted flesh is destroyed, and we are given new non corrupted bodies, this struggle will remain.

The time and energy put towards the goal of sinning less and ultimately not sinning at all, is misplaced, misleading, and ultimately leads us back into the bondage of sin. That time and energy should be put towards getting to know more of God. The logic is simple, if you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, you wont be doing what you aren't to be doing. The more of God you know, the more of God is revealed through you, and naturally, the less you will sin. No effort, no fuss, no worries.

On the contrary, we should aim to confront the sinful passions and tame them for the glory of God. Christ commanded us to be perfect even as the Father is perfect (Christ is also perfect, but put on our human nature in order to perfect and glorify it on the Cross, thus he was, in this case as with Baptism, the first to do that which He commanded us to continue doing, that is, to be baptized by water and spirit and thus participate in His Baptism in the Jordan, and to put to death our mortal nature, corrupted by the passions so as to put on incorruption.

This is why St. Paul stresses the importance of asceticism, likening the way to running a race. Also I would note that this is not works righteousness; without the grace of the Holy Spirit acquired through faith, this process of Theosis , or as John Wesley translated it, entire sanctification, becomes impossible.

But since St. Athanasius not only led the Nicene Council which produced the first version of our Creed and rejected the heresy of Arius, but also compiled our 27 book New Testament canon, we ought to pay attention when he writes that God became man so that man could become god, that is to say, that we might by grace become what Christ is by nature.

This is not to say all will conquer sin in this life, but some have, and in the case of the Theotokos, she never sinned at all, although having been born under the shadow of ancestral sin, still required salvation through her Son, which she of course received as the early church attested.

A Devil's Advocate · 2025-11-20T22:24:37-0600

The Liturgist said:
On the contrary, we should aim to confront the sinful passions and tame them for the glory of God.

I don't mean this to be disrespectful in any way, but I have to ask... "Why?"

Why are we to focus our efforts, any at all really, on confronting our sinful passions? How is being focused on ourselves bringing any glory whatsoever to God? My post, if you read it all the way through, concludes with me explaining how our focus should be on God and getting to know more of God, plain and simple. It is only through this act alone will we see ourselves overcoming sin.

The Liturgist said:
This is not to say all will conquer sin in this life, but some have, and in the case of the Theotokos, she never sinned at all, although having been born under the shadow of ancestral sin, still required salvation through her Son, which she of course received as the early church attested.

This idea that Mary never sinned does not align with scripture. Paul tells us in Rom 3:23 that all have sinned. He makes no exception here. When he is so direct in his statement, why would he neglect to mention Mary as the exception? Same with John in 1 John 1:8. If Mary was without sin, then was John correct in assuming the individuals he was addressing were with sin? If Mary was without sin, then how can John be so sure that these people weren't also without sin?

If Mary was innocent of all sin, then scripture is wrong and it is possible to live a life free of sin. Because if one person did it, that means it's possible for anyone to do it. And if that's true, then there was no need for the Gospel.

Christ was perfect (sinless) because He remained spiritually alive. He was never spiritually dead, which would have been the case had He a human father. Spiritual death is the condition that leads us to sin. We will all inevitably sin as a result of our condition. This was not the condition of Christ. But, it was the condition of Mary. However, our sin is not the issue here. It is our condition. Christ being without sin meant He would never experience the condition of spiritual death. It wasn't until the cross that Jesus experienced spiritual death, separation from God, the very same punishment Adam and Eve were given for their disobedience, that we have all inherited. If spiritual death is the punishment for sin, then that is the very punishment Christ had to endure to pay for our sins.

Now when you claim that Mary still had to be saved due ancestral sin, not her own sin, then you would appear to agree with me that it is not our sin that separates us from God, but our condition of spiritual death. However, that is not the position of Orthodox church as I understand it (I may be wrong here).

One last thought. When a baby is born and that baby dies moments after birth, it never had the opportunity to sin. All sin is a wilful act. Is that baby going to suffer an eternity separated from God, or will God's grace allow that baby into His presence for eternity? I would assume the later. God's grace would have priority. Now should that baby instead live a long life, it will inevitably sin as a result of it's condition. At which point it will then become guilty of sin like the rest of us. Now, if Mary is in the same position as that baby was dying without sin, why would God's grace not also apply to her? Why did she still need to be saved?

Brother Del · 2025-11-21T00:50:42-0600

If anyone wants to be His disciple, which I presume should be the goal of every born again believer, they need to die.

The only people who don't sin are dead people.

Which is why Christ told us to take up our own cross and follow Him.

We die to the world, die to ourselves, and Christ lives through us by His Holy Spirit.

That's the model. That's how its supposed to work.

The sad truth is, that most people who claim to be followers of Christ, don't study their bibles, don't have a prayer life, are never discipled by a mature older brother or sister, seldom hear the truth from the pulpit, and the person to their right and to their left in that pew on Sunday, is in the exact same sad situation as they are.

The good news is... well, its the Good News, if a person truly repents and places their trust in Christ at any point in their lives, God in His infinite mercy and wisdom will redeem them and regenerate them. And at some point, regardless of the circumstances, in His good timing and according to His own will, and for His own glory, He will enlighten their hearts and minds and call them out of the darkness.

How do I know this to be true? Because He did it for me, and many others like me.

In my own estimation, my prayer life sucks, not because I don't have one, but because I do, and its amazing, and I know how much better it could be. My time in the word also leaves much to be desired, not because I do not spend time in His word, but because I know I don't spend nearly enough time in His word, and every time I do, He never fails to give to me some deeper knowledge than I possessed the day before. My obedience also sucks, not because I live in sin, but because He has made me so sensitive to the leading of His Spirit that I find it hard to balance my everyday life with those things I feel led by Him to do.

The reality of this spiritual life we are now living, is that once we truly see Him for who He is, and ourselves for who we truly are, we will never be satisfied no matter how much of Him we receive, or how much of ourselves we give.

If this resonates with anyone, then please accept this humble exhortation. Cultivate a life of prayer. Rise early and seek His face, open up your hearts and mouths to Him daily, take the time to get to know your Father intimately, and prepare to be amazed. I did, and I can sincerely say, its the single most important action I have ever taken.

I'm so far from what I am called to be that I cannot put it into words. But neither can I adequately express how much love and compassion and tenderness and joy and satisfaction I have received and continue to receive from my Father, and that even on my worst days. And I often find that it is in those worst moments, that He actually reveals His deep love for me the most.

Imagine the worlds greatest Dad, teaching His blind, deaf and lame son, how to ride a bicycle. If you can imagine that, minus a few meaningless details, you now know the story of my life.

Father have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
Holy Spirit lift the veil.

The goal of Christianity in 'Not' to stop sinning!

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