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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

sovereigngrace

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Paul was not saying that the church - made up of both Gentile and Jewish believers - is Israel.
It is true Israel (those born of God), not apostate ethnic Christ-rejecting Israel that is of their father the devil.

Romans 2:26 teaches: “if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?”
  • Who are "the uncircumcision" here?
  • What does it say they become when they come to faith in Christ?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul was not saying that the church - made up of both Gentile and Jewish believers - is Israel.
1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?
 
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Douggg

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1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
Paul did not say an Israeli tree.

Paul was metaphorically speaking about olive trees (wild vs groomed) to describe persons who embraced God's gospel of salvation in Christ vs persons who rejected God's gospel of salvation in Christ.
 
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I answered. You ignored. If you refuse to address my detailed post i am going to take that as an admission that you have no rebuttal.

Nothing in your answer even have "James", and you still claim to have answered.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Paul did not say an Israeli tree.

Paul was metaphorically speaking about olive trees (wild vs groomed) to describe persons who embraced God's gospel of salvation in Christ vs persons who rejected God's gospel of salvation in Christ.
Why did you just address 1 point?

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree. Romans 11:24 explains, speaking about natural Israel: “these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?” This is an Israeli tree that holds Israeli citizens. But it was not merely a natural Israeli tree but a spiritual Israeli tree. After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. We are clearly looking at a spiritual tree that accommodates both the believing Jew and the believing Gentile from both Old and New Testament. It embodies all those who belong to the “household of faith” throughout time.

Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).
 
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Fisherking

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Many on here were deceived by Pretrib growing up, but our eyes have been opened to its folly. You cannot even prove one single claim. You add unto the scriptural text. This is all man-made theories. There is no substance to it. That is because you do not have Scripture to support Pretrib. There is no proof-text in Scripture - that is why you twist a text like Revelation 4.
I have been doing this 40 years, I understand the difference between the holy spirts voice and Satan's lies. Anytime I see people who can not understand God's SIMPLE TIMING PATTERNS, I get leery. Not understanding these deeper truths leads people down wrong paths, and then they teach others these same errors. Yet these types refuse to listen to those of us who present the facts, its always the message board warriors or the Mormon/JW types that go down these roads.

No matter how its presented, even when it overcomes their own take on things, they jut forge ahead, eyes closed, these types can't see because they chose not to see. As per anything secret, its only secret TO YOU GUYS. God writes in ways the average joe CAN NOT SEE on purpose. Jesus stated he spoke in parables so the world hearing they would not hear and seeing would not see. So, why didn't Israel understand the Old Testament Bible that foretold Jesus' coming as a sacrifice? Because they did not WANT TO SEE IT !! Its in there, but in God's own way He forces us to dig these truths out, NOTICE, nowhere does it say on Dec. 25 (just an example we do not know what day he was born on) year 03 at 7 AM that Yeshua will be born. WHY? According to you guys that is how God must write things down, same excuse the Pharisees and Nicodemus gave. The Old Man in the temple saw baby Jesus and he knew but HOW? The wise men knew. The scripture says Yeshua will be born in Bethlehem, it says "My son" will come out of Egypt, how can both be true? Did God confused the Pharisees on purpose? No, that is how He writes, you call it "SECRET" but its not, you just refuse to hear these factoids because God refuses IT spell it out in a manner you think He should. Psstt, He wants you to dig it out, and you are too busy locked into your own understanding, just as the Pharisees were, MOST PEOPLE ARE, so Nicodemus asks how can a man be born again? Which he of course refused to believe.

Its not even hard, to those who will open their minds and investigate all of the pertinent facts. Revelation is hard, the Simple Pre Trib. Rapture is not, that is easy stuff, their can be no other timing, period, nothing else even remotely fits. But like the pharisees you expect God to say it in BIG BOLD WORDS, that is not going to happen, it did not happen with Jesus' birth which practically no one saw coming, and it will not happen with the rapture, but unlike them, we have direct access to the holy spirit, so like that Old Man, many people will understand it. He dug the info out as did the wise men, its here, why can't you dig it out my friend?

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
That is NOT CORRECT, the After THIS is speaking about the Church Age. The THINGS WHICH YOU HAVE SEEN is talking about the Supernatural Glory of Jesus' Eternal Godhead and Splendor. The THINGS WHCH ARE can only mean the Church Age. The Hereafter can only mean after he Church Age. You denying these facts will not change these facts brother. We know when the transition happens because we see it happen in real time in Rev. 4:1

AFTER THIS (Rev. 2 and 3 the Church Age where 7 = Divine Completion, not after Rev. 1 COME ON, this is why you can never see these things) A DOOR IS OPEN TO HEAVEN, does God have to knock us over the head to show us this is the rapture? COME UP HERE............Again, its astounding you can not see this which should be an easy thing to see..........AND I WILL SHOW YOU THINGS WHICH MUST BE "HEREAFTER" [The Church Age]. As I stated, you do not want to see it. The disciples understood by Nicodemus

Running late, All I have time for today
 
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keras

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Those who are part of this symbolic tree enjoy a common spiritual identity that is reflected in a new type of citizenship. It is a spiritual citizenship that is heaven-centered which only believers can enjoy. This symbolic tree represents the Israel of God from throughout the nations – the only Israel God recognizes. No unbeliever is part of it because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of faith. This joining of Jews and Gentiles together fulfilled many of the promises Abraham received about the nations being blessed in him
This is the Truth and any other theory is a lie.
Only a small remnant of Judah will survive to be a minority in all of the faithful Chrisian Israelites of God. Ezekiel 16:63
 
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Brother Del

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Isaiah 51:1-2, Galatians 3:26-29, refute you.
It is a fundamental truth that Christian believers are the Spiritual descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ethnic descent has no value.
I wouldn't say no value. Many Christian believers are indeed descended from Abraham. The presence and influence of the ten northern tribes has been well documented all throughout Europe and beyond. They were never lost in the physical. They were carried away captive and dispersed among the heathen, just as scripture said would happen. The promise that all the world would be blessed by Abraham's offspring has clearly been fulfilled, but not only by Christ, but also through the dispersed among the heathen. And just so no one can accuse me of white nationalism, the 10 northern tribes were an incredibly ethnically diverse group who's bloodlines were even more diluted as they mingled amongst the heathen. But it certainly cannot be said to be without value.

Many were present at the day of Pentecost.

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven"
Acts 2:5

James addressed them directly in His epistle.

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
James 1:1

Paul's missionary journeys were all about seeking them out and turning them to Christ.
Paul declared himself the Apostle to the gentiles, gentiles simply means nations or peoples, it has never meant everyone or anyone who is not a Jew, though that is what many with a particular agenda would have us to believe.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have been doing this 40 years, I understand the difference between the holy spirts voice and Satan's lies. Anytime I see people who can not understand God's SIMPLE TIMING PATTERNS, I get leery. Not understanding these deeper truths leads people down wrong paths, and then they teach others these same errors. Yet these types refuse to listen to those of us who present the facts, its always the message board warriors or the Mormon/JW types that go down these roads.

No matter how its presented, even when it overcomes their own take on things, they jut forge ahead, eyes closed, these types can't see because they chose not to see. As per anything secret, its only secret TO YOU GUYS. God writes in ways the average joe CAN NOT SEE on purpose. Jesus stated he spoke in parables so the world hearing they would not hear and seeing would not see. So, why didn't Israel understand the Old Testament Bible that foretold Jesus' coming as a sacrifice? Because they did not WANT TO SEE IT !! Its in there, but in God's own way He forces us to dig these truths out, NOTICE, nowhere does it say on Dec. 25 (just an example we do not know what day he was born on) year 03 at 7 AM that Yeshua will be born. WHY? According to you guys that is how God must write things down, same excuse the Pharisees and Nicodemus gave. The Old Man in the temple saw baby Jesus and he knew but HOW? The wise men knew. The scripture says Yeshua will be born in Bethlehem, it says "My son" will come out of Egypt, how can both be true? Did God confused the Pharisees on purpose? No, that is how He writes, you call it "SECRET" but its not, you just refuse to hear these factoids because God refuses IT spell it out in a manner you think He should. Psstt, He wants you to dig it out, and you are too busy locked into your own understanding, just as the Pharisees were, MOST PEOPLE ARE, so Nicodemus asks how can a man be born again? Which he of course refused to believe.

Its not even hard, to those who will open their minds and investigate all of the pertinent facts. Revelation is hard, the Simple Pre Trib. Rapture is not, that is easy stuff, their can be no other timing, period, nothing else even remotely fits. But like the pharisees you expect God to say it in BIG BOLD WORDS, that is not going to happen, it did not happen with Jesus' birth which practically no one saw coming, and it will not happen with the rapture, but unlike them, we have direct access to the holy spirit, so like that Old Man, many people will understand it. He dug the info out as did the wise men, its here, why can't you dig it out my friend?


That is NOT CORRECT, the After THIS is speaking about the Church Age. The THINGS WHICH YOU HAVE SEEN is talking about the Supernatural Glory of Jesus' Eternal Godhead and Splendor. The THINGS WHCH ARE can only mean the Church Age. The Hereafter can only mean after he Church Age. You denying these facts will not change these facts brother. We know when the transition happens because we see it happen in real time in Rev. 4:1

AFTER THIS (Rev. 2 and 3 the Church Age where 7 = Divine Completion, not after Rev. 1 COME ON, this is why you can never see these things) A DOOR IS OPEN TO HEAVEN, does God have to knock us over the head to show us this is the rapture? COME UP HERE............Again, its astounding you can not see this which should be an easy thing to see..........AND I WILL SHOW YOU THINGS WHICH MUST BE "HEREAFTER" [The Church Age]. As I stated, you do not want to see it. The disciples understood by Nicodemus

Running late, All I have time for today
You have been badly misled.

Where is the rapture in Rev 4:1? Where is the mention of the Church in Rev 4:1? You cannot even show these. That because it is not there. You force it into the inspired text. You cannot even get to B, never mind Z. Pretrib is all man-made theories. There is no authentic divine substance to it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The text says olive tree, not Israeli tree.
The good olive tree is true Israel. We have been joined to them - the elect remnant according to grace. It is a spiritual Israeli tree. It is a believing tree. It is the household of faith from the beginning.

Why did you duck the other points?
 
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keras

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Many Christian believers are indeed descended from Abraham.
Everybody alive today has some of Abrahams genes. This is a fact of genetic dispersion, over the 3000 years, divided by 40 years = 75+ generations.
God's Promises to the Patriarchs will be kept, by those peoples who accept the salvation offered by Jesus. The Overcomers for God; literally - His Israelites.
the 10 northern tribes were an incredibly ethnically diverse group
Yes, they had the diverse characteristics of Jacobs sons. The meaning of their names and their various attributes as Prophesied by Jacob and Moses.
We know who and where they are now, from how each people group of the world received the Gospel message. Matthew 15:24
The Christian nation of South Korea is a good example.

Gods secret is that the 10 Northern tribes of Israel have, mainly, become Christian, not because of their ancestry, but because they -we Christians, chose to believe the Gospel and to obey the Commandments.
 
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Douggg

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The good olive tree is true Israel. We have been joined to them - the elect remnant according to grace. It is a spiritual Israeli tree. It is a believing tree. It is the household of faith from the beginning.
The text does not say that the good olive tree is Israel.

The good olive tree is people who believe God and are saved. Not any particular nation.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The text does not say that the good olive tree is Israel.

The good olive tree is people who believe God and are saved. Not any particular nation.

It is an Israeli tree. I showed you the evidence above but you ducked around it, as usual. That is because it exposes your doctrine.

Romans 11:21 KJV — For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Romans 11:24 KJV — For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Is this a Turkish tree, Irish tree or Israeli tree by nature? It is not a hard question for the unindoctrinated.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The text does not say that the good olive tree is Israel.

The good olive tree is people who believe God and are saved. Not any particular nation.
Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Consider the verse below when thinking about the modern nation of Israel.

Isaiah 54:9 To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.

The Apostle Paul declares the obvious in Galatians 4:26-27. That Isaiah 54 is a prophecy about the New Jerusalem. The context of that chapter is Old Testament believer’s being illustrated as the wife of God suffering at the hands of their own wicked kings and the gentile nations; someday winning the nations by the gospel and through that inheriting the world. This is why Paul called the New Jerusalem the mother of all New Testament believers. OT saints in Ancient Israel gave birth to NT saints, both Jew and Gentile.

Here is how Isaiah 54:9 ties into the debate over the two extremes between those who teach the name Israel IS ONLY referring to the Jews and modern Israel and God's covenant with them. Verses those who say Israel is now the church and God's NT covenant. In both the OT and NT we see God is almost continuously angry with Ancient Israel for its sin. The reason for this is God chose both the saints and sinners out of one nation, Ancient Israel, to bring his word and the Messiah into the earth. It was his Normandy beach head for his long-planned invasion of planet earth to spread the influence of his invisible kingdom.

Once the mission God chose all of Ancient Israel for was complete. His focus became the expansion of that influence worldwide. First through Jewish believers that naturally added Gentile believers to that mix. This new mix of believers, illustrated in the Bible’s prophecy was given a new name- The New Jerusalem

Isaiah 62;1 For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent, for Jerusalem’s sake I will not remain quiet, till her vindication shines out like the dawn, her salvation like a blazing torch. 2 The nations will see your vindication, and all kings your glory; YOU WILL BE CALLED BY A NEW NAME that the mouth of the Lord will bestow.

That is why God would no longer be angry with his people. They are no longer a mix of ethnic Israeli's who had the faith of Abraham along with the ethnic Israeli's who refused that faith. Instead, his people, illustratively spoken of as God’s bride and the New Jerusalem consist of a mix of ethnic Israelis and gentiles who have embraced the faith of Abraham- in and of the Messiah.

Speaking to both extremes about this issue. This IS the Bible’s OT and NT doctrine on the matter. God will not smile upon anything else that is taught.

Does this mean ethnic Israelis, or Jews, who do not have or refuse the faith of Abraham are no longer God’s chosen people? That would depend on narrative you look at Bible's prophecy through. Which by the way is the main point of friction between the two extremes. One extreme says yes because there is end of the world prophecy in the Bible that revolves around a modern nation of Israel. One says no because only believers count as the children of Abraham by faith so the modern nation is an aberration not mentioned in scripture.

But what says the scripture? Well, according to many chapters of prophecy like Isaiah 54, 60, 61, 62, 65 Rev 20-22. Daniel 2 & 7 They say billions would come to Christ after the Roman Empire ends which happened in 1453 AD; and the natural result of that would be a world transforming for the better. We now know this was due to the general public, (illegally) beginning to gain access to their own Bibles to read themselves right when that empire ended. This is what the Bible means when it said the meek, or the saints, shall inherit the earth. It's why we went from the perpetual rule of kings and emperors to a growing free world of republics as it states in the passage below.

Isaiah 29:18-20 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. For the tyrannical oppressor is brought to nothing…….

Now we have the key to understanding why modern Israel exists. The process of meek inheriting the earth would providentially lead to the world having mercy on the Jewish people and bringing them back to the land promised to Abraham. NOT for some end of the world apocalypse. But rather as part of the process of the meek inheriting the earth. As stated in the prophecy below. The regions future is 10’s of millions of Jews, Arabs, Egyptians and Syrians finding the faith of Abraham in Jesus their savior. The natural result of theirs and the Bible’s influence will be the transformation of the region. It's how the prophecy below is being fulfilled. All the war, death and destruction is Satan’s doings through darkened hearts to try to stop this from happening. Over the long run, it is not going to work.

Isaiah 19: 23-25 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

Good news is it not? Peace on earth, good will towards men news.
I agree with a lot that you write, but this all started with the appearance of the Messiah 2000 years ago. This work has been ongoing since the earthly ministry of Christ and will continue till the second coming. This is not merely a future event. Yes, God can move in a dramatic way among physical israelites today (to whatever degree), but His focus is the nations today (including Israel) and will continue until His climactic return.
 
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keras

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The Jewish State of Israel, is a fake Israel. Judah lost their claim to the Israel name when they split from the 10 Northern tribes , 3000 years ago.

This is proved by Jesus when He said He had been sent to save the lost House of Israel. Matt 15:24 He was in the land of the Jews and they rejected and killed Him.
The NT makes it clear who the real Peoples of God, the Overcomers for Him and the true Israelites; are.

The NT and the OT, also make it clear what the fate of the apostate Jews will be. Luke 19:27
 
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Douggg

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Can you answer these simple questions?

1. The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11). Is that an ethnic or spiritual tree?
2. The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
3. The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). Is that ethnic or spiritual Israel?
4. The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11). Is that ethnic or spiritual Jews?
5. The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. Are we the ethnic or spiritual "children of Abraham"?
6. The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10). Is that natural physical earthly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" or is that spiritual heavenly "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion"?
The Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Israel nor any other singular nation.

Seek you first the Kingdom of God.... Matthew 6:33.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Israel nor any other singular nation.

Seek you first the Kingdom of God.... Matthew 6:33.
Who said it was?

Congrats on more avoidance. It sums up your position.
 
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