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Trump pardons Giuliani, Sidney Powell, John Eastman, Mark Meadows, all fake electors for their attempt to overturn 2020 election, pardon official says

MarkSB

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We keep trying to do this .... however the corruption is wide and deep. Government is way way too big ... the bigger something gets the more difficult it is to manage and/or have proper oversight. The only way corrupt practices will be curtailed is if the people involved in them are actually prosecuted for their dastardly deeds and so far that hasn't come into fruition.

While I agree that absolute pardon power is something presidents should not have, and that there is a long list of pardons from Biden that appear questionable - most of them appear to be much more petty crimes. At face value, they also don’t appear to be pardons that Biden would have benefited from politically (though digging deeper might reveal otherwise).

The pardons being issued by Trump are high profile cases. We’re talking elections interference here - something that should be one of the most serious crimes.

The false equivalencies that Trump likes to dabble in are dangerous, and we should not buy into them. If you want pardon power taken away, then fine - but don’t let “they are all corrupt” be an excuse for every immoral action.
 
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A2SG

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No ... just saying they both gave pardons and that some on both sides are questionable ... at least Trumps pardons weren't signed with an auto pen ... to me that fact is highly suspicious
Couple things...first, you don't know the autopen wasn't used, even if by Trump himself. Second, of course, you also don't know that President Biden did not know or at least approve of the use of the autopen, assuming it was used in those cases. You'd have to prove it in either case, or it's just speculation and nothing more.

Further, as to the questionability of the respective pardons, Trump clearly pardoned people who acted illegally on his behalf, explicitly or implicitly, in his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. This includes his legal teams, those who engineered or participated in the fake elector scheme, and those who stormed the Capitol on January 6. The evidence for corruption in those cases is pretty clear and very blatant, considering the fact that, had he not approved of their illegal actions, he would have no reason to pardon them.

If there is any evidence that President Biden used his power of pardon to reward those who acted illegal on his behalf, that remains to be seen. Nothing has yet been put forth as evidence for this claim. Even in the case of his son, the fact that it's his son is enough to explain his reasoning without political corruption being involved.

But, that said, if anyone wishes to make the case that President Biden corruptly used the power of the pardon (or someone did so without his knowledge via autopen), then they need to make the case with evidence, not speculation or rumors. I wonder if anyone can.

-- A2SG, so far, speculation and rumor seems to be all anyone's got....
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Are you saying that Biden't corrupt pardons justify Trump's corrupt pardons?

I disagree.

I don't think most folks would say that one justifies the other...

I do, however, think that if a person sat quietly for one set of pardons (and didn't appear to be all that bothered by them), that would preclude them from feigning outrage and and getting all "hot & bothered" about another set of pardons.

So it's really the perceived hypocrisy that people are providing a rebuttal against.


Speaking personally, I have a love/hate relationship with pardons.

I understand why that power exists (as it's pretty much the only "check" on the judicial branch that comes from an external branch -- every other "check" on a judicial ruling comes from within the judicial branch itself)

But I would like to see that power refined just a bit... so that it exists less within the realm of "yeah, the did it, but meh, they're a close friend and family member, so I'm letting them off the hook" and bring it back more into the realm of "correct a mistake or overstep by the judicial branch".
 
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iluvatar5150

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No ... just saying they both gave pardons and that some on both sides are questionable ... at least Trumps pardons weren't signed with an auto pen ... to me that fact is highly suspicious

While I agree that absolute pardon power is something presidents should not have, and that there is a long list of pardons from Biden that appear questionable
You guys keep saying that some of Biden's pardons are sketchy, but you haven't named a single one.

Why not? Is it easier to just make claims rather than to do any actual reading?

The list has already been posted and it isn't big. It only took me a couple minutes to look over. The vast majority are for offenses that occurred 15+ years ago. The only recent-ish one that got me to raise an eyebrow was Geral Lundgarden. The other recent-ish ones were blanket pardons for people likely to be punitatively targeted by the incoming Trump administration (e.g. Biden family members, Mark Milley, Dr Fauci). You could probably argue that the pardons for his son and brother are questionable, but that's all I'm seeing. How is this in any way comparable to what Trump's done?
 
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Yttrium

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You guys keep saying that some of Biden's pardons are sketchy, but you haven't named a single one.
Well, I've named one before, namely pardoning his son. I haven't forgiven him for that.
 
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JSRG

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I don't think most folks would say that one justifies the other...

I do, however, think that if a person sat quietly for one set of pardons (and didn't appear to be all that bothered by them), that would preclude them from feigning outrage and and getting all "hot & bothered" about another set of pardons.

So it's really the perceived hypocrisy that people are providing a rebuttal against.


Speaking personally, I have a love/hate relationship with pardons.

I understand why that power exists (as it's pretty much the only "check" on the judicial branch that comes from an external branch -- every other "check" on a judicial ruling comes from within the judicial branch itself)

But I would like to see that power refined just a bit... so that it exists less within the realm of "yeah, the did it, but meh, they're a close friend and family member, so I'm letting them off the hook" and bring it back more into the realm of "correct a mistake or overstep by the judicial branch".
Absent the presidential pardon power, this check is available: As far as I understand, Congress can just pass in both houses and have signed by the President an act pardoning any specific individuals or groups of individuals. It's right there. Eliminating the presidential pardon would simply require the President to get two houses of Congress to agree to pardon someone in order for the President to sign it and make it effective. This would ensure that any pardons would be for clear problems that both Congress and the President agree with, and also make it so Congress has to take the first act.

It'd also stop those annoying pardons that are literally issued on the very last day of their presidency, because a President would need congress to pass it first before they sign it.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Absent the presidential pardon power, this check is available: As far as I understand, Congress can just pass in both houses and have signed by the President an act pardoning any specific individuals or groups of individuals. It's right there. Eliminating the presidential pardon would simply require the President to get two houses of Congress to agree to pardon someone in order for the President to sign it and make it effective. This would ensure that any pardons would be for clear problems that both Congress and the President agree with, and also make it so Congress has to take the first act.

It'd also stop those annoying pardons that are literally issued on the very last day of their presidency, because a President would need congress to pass it first before they sign it.

I think there's a very solid case for preventing the "lame duck pardons" as you mentioned...

Mainly, because once that layer of accountability of "I need to get re-elected, or at the very least, avoid impeachment" is removed, that's when those "time to let my buddies off the hook" pardons start flying fast & furious.

I've considered the congressional aspect you mentioned, but I don't think it solves the problem (at least in terms of a replacement), and I'll tell you why...


1) It's still going to be employed in a partisan fashion. No Democratic partisan congress is going to make a motion to pardon a well known Republican figure, and no Republican controlled congress is ever going to make a motion to pardon a well known Democratic figure.

2) If it's a collaborative solution (where a president has to do it with the approval of congress), it's going to be viewed as obstructionist when the congress is not on the same team as the Pres, and viewed as a farcical formality ("rubber stamp") when congress is on the same side as the Pres.


So all of the same challenges and perceptions of partisan bias will still be in full swing (just with extra steps)



Now, I have heard an option that I've heard described that I've liked (though I don't know how practical it is) that still has a multi-branch collaboration element.

There's a pardon board (similar to a parole board) comprised of 7 members.
3 appointed by the Senate Majority leader
3 appointed by the Senate Minority leader
1 appointed by the Senate Parliamentarian

(and each of those positions has to be confirmed through the same process as cabinet appointments)

The president has the power to send pardon referrals to that panel, but it needs a 4-3 vote in favor to "pass".



Ultimately, this is a sticky wicket because of the fact that the founders (despite having many awesome ideas about checks and balances), didn't have a great solution or remediation element to the fact that the judicial branch has an outsized amount of power compared to the other 2.

And the judicial branch is the only one for which there's no rigid tangible standard by which to "un-do" what they do. (outside the branch itself)

Plus, the branch is unique in that the "Supremacy Clause" doesn't fully apply.

A state level judge technically has the power to say "I deem this federal law to be unconstitutional, so this state won't be enforcing it for the time being"

No such dynamic exists in the other two branches.
 
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MarkSB

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You guys keep saying that some of Biden's pardons are sketchy, but you haven't named a single one.

Why not? Is it easier to just make claims rather than to do any actual reading?

The list has already been posted and it isn't big. It only took me a couple minutes to look over. The vast majority are for offenses that occurred 15+ years ago. The only recent-ish one that got me to raise an eyebrow was Geral Lundgarden. The other recent-ish ones were blanket pardons for people likely to be punitatively targeted by the incoming Trump administration (e.g. Biden family members, Mark Milley, Dr Fauci). You could probably argue that the pardons for his son and brother are questionable, but that's all I'm seeing. How is this in any way comparable to what Trump's done?

I'm not sure who the "you guys" are that "keep saying", because I only responded once. And you snipped the part of my post where I contrasted the Biden pardons to the Trump pardons - saying that I saw the Trump pardons to be more problematic. Instead you only included the part of my post that allowed you to unabashedly fire back against it.

I don't have in depth knowledge of why Biden granted the pardons that he did. Without having that knowledge, I'm not going to wave my hand and say that they were all ok... which is what it seems like you would have me do. Maybe they had pure intentions behind them, and maybe they didn't. The Trump pardons are obviously politically and selfishly motivated. He is showing people that you can break the law for him, and get off the hook.

The bottom line is - the only way I see to prevent this from happening again in the future, is that a president should not be given unchecked pardon power. It is proving to be a problem in itself.

Fixing the cracks in the system that are allowing Trump to do the things that he is doing is something that should be a point of discussion. But our politicians (and a large part of our citizenry, for that matter) are so focused on partisan bickering and not on actual problem solving, that there is little doubt in my mind these things will continue to go unaddressed, regardless of who is in power.
 
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NxNW

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Well, I've named one before, namely pardoning his son. I haven't forgiven him for that.
Biden probably got word that his son's life was in danger, and wanted to prevent another "suicide" like Epstein that happened on Trump's watch.
 
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JSRG

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I've considered the congressional aspect you mentioned, but I don't think it solves the problem (at least in terms of a replacement), and I'll tell you why...


1) It's still going to be employed in a partisan fashion. No Democratic partisan congress is going to make a motion to pardon a well known Republican figure, and no Republican controlled congress is ever going to make a motion to pardon a well known Democratic figure.

Given that Democratic partisan presidents aren't much in the habit of pardoning well known Republican figures*, and vice versa, I don't see how this is particularly different. And before anyone says "well, what about Biden's preemptive pardons of Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger?" Well, (1) those pardons were not specific to them, but applied to the the entire January 6 Select Committee, and (2) both had effectively exited the Republican Party by that point (they endorsed Kamala Harris!), so I would say they no longer count as "well known Republican figures".

2) If it's a collaborative solution (where a president has to do it with the approval of congress), it's going to be viewed as obstructionist when the congress is not on the same team as the Pres, and viewed as a farcical formality ("rubber stamp") when congress is on the same side as the Pres.

I don't think it would be as much of a rubber stamp as people think it is. There's a reason why Presidents normally wait until the end of their terms to issue controversial pardons: Doing so is unpopular and one should try to do it at a time when it is unlikely to rebound either upon you or your party. But people in congress have much less luxury in regards to this. They have to worry about their next elections, particularly if they live in a swing state or swing district. Trump doesn't care if he takes heat for the current pardons he's doing or for the inevitable end-of-term-preemptive-pardons-of-every-member-of-his-family-and-staff that he's almost certainly going to issue just like Biden did. But if a congressman votes for those pardons, then they're going to have to explain to the voters next election "yeah, so here's why I did that." That demands greater accountability. Yes, I'm sure partisan politics will make congress much more subservient to what the President wants if the President is of their party, but there's still limits to that. As we've seen, even Trump has limits in getting the entire Republican congress to go along with something.

So all of the same challenges and perceptions of partisan bias will still be in full swing (just with extra steps)

it would, at least, appear to stop the particularly egregious pardons.

Now, I have heard an option that I've heard described that I've liked (though I don't know how practical it is) that still has a multi-branch collaboration element.

There's a pardon board (similar to a parole board) comprised of 7 members.
3 appointed by the Senate Majority leader
3 appointed by the Senate Minority leader
1 appointed by the Senate Parliamentarian

(and each of those positions has to be confirmed through the same process as cabinet appointments)

The president has the power to send pardon referrals to that panel, but it needs a 4-3 vote in favor to "pass".

This seems like it has multiple problems. The Senate Parliamentarian seems a position so far removed from anything like this that suddenly making them a kingmaker on something like this is problematic given it has nothing to do with their actual job;one might as well give the power to a bailiff of the Supreme Court. Further, the Senate Parliamentarian serves at the pleasure of the Senate Majority leader, who can just remove them at any time, meaning this functionally is a 4/3 in favor of the Senate majority.

Ultimately, this is a sticky wicket because of the fact that the founders (despite having many awesome ideas about checks and balances), didn't have a great solution or remediation element to the fact that the judicial branch has an outsized amount of power compared to the other 2.

And the judicial branch is the only one for which there's no rigid tangible standard by which to "un-do" what they do. (outside the branch itself)

But it isn't the "judicial branch" that actually convicts people. It's the jury, taken from the general public. I suppose someone could say a jury becomes part of the judicial branch, but it's on such a temporary basis I find that questionable. In any event, this might be an argument against removing any ability to ever pardon a guilty person, but again that's not the argument. The suggestion is to remove the pardoning power from the President and leave it to Congress, subject to the President's veto power. Congress, as far as I understand, already has that power (and if it doesn't, the same amendment process removing it from the President can give it to them).

And there are indeed ways to undo what the judicial branch does from outside. Some of them are roundabout (bringing in new judges to undo a decision, or in the case of convictions amending the law), but they're there.

In contrast, there is nothing that can presently undo a pardon. Nothing. Once the President issues it, it's done. There is some question as to whether preemptive pardons are constitutional (they haven't been tested in court, in large part because I think prior to Biden only one preemptive pardon had ever been issued, namely Ford's pardon of Nixon, who subsequent Presidents didn't have interest in going after), but even if we restrict ourselves to pardons of crimes convicted, once it's done it's done. No one can undo that pardon--not another branch, not even a different President. Even if a President gets impeached over corrupt pardons and kicked out of office, the pardons stick. Heck, if the impeachment process starts and it's certain the President will be kicked out, they can go on a pardoning spree before Congress can actually do their vote to kick them out. It strikes me as very odd in a system of checks and balance to give a power that cannot be stopped or undone and is completely under the control of just one person who can do it at any time. So having pardons be passed like regular laws would actually be fixing the checks and balances system by having such an undoable power require two branches (Congress could do it by themselves if they have a veto proof majority).

Plus, the branch is unique in that the "Supremacy Clause" doesn't fully apply.

A state level judge technically has the power to say "I deem this federal law to be unconstitutional, so this state won't be enforcing it for the time being"


No such dynamic exists in the other two branches.

And then that judge can be overruled by a higher court. However, even if we grant this as a problem, how does the President have unilateral power to pardon solve it? The pardon power isn't about constitutional violations, but convictions. It's like saying "the justice system is too harsh on drug crimes so we should limit their power by increasing speed limits to make it harder to arrest people for speeding."
 
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rjs330

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Meh.. why is this a thing. Oh I know its because Trump did it. People upset about this are most likely very hypocritical.

The pardon is a thing its not going away. All people arw doing is trying to be divisive and partisan.

This is a prime example about what happens when a president does something new. It opens the door for others to do the same thing. Biden did this and people on the left didn't care that much. Then Trump does it and suddenly its a big deal. Democrats go after Trump and people on the right and the left loved it. Republicans go after those who went after the right and the left is totally upset.

Next Democratic President is going to pardon other people. Its all ready been proven.

Can we all just give up on the faux outrage?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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But it isn't the "judicial branch" that actually convicts people. It's the jury, taken from the general public. I suppose someone could say a jury becomes part of the judicial branch, but it's on such a temporary basis I find that questionable. In any event, this might be an argument against removing any ability to ever pardon a guilty person, but again that's not the argument. The suggestion is to remove the pardoning power from the President and leave it to Congress, subject to the President's veto power. Congress, as far as I understand, already has that power (and if it doesn't, the same amendment process removing it from the President can give it to them).
But the judge is the one who oversees that process

1) In terms of deciding which evidence to allow and disallow in a trial
2) Makes sentencing decisions based on the jury's decision


So a judge can absolutely steer a case in one direction or another.

So I can see the need for an outside branch to provide a "check" on that power. As it currently stands, the only other check on that power only exists within the judicial branch itself (which comes attached with an expensive and lengthy appeals process through the court system)

Congressmen, in this regard (and this may sound weird to say) would be "too accountable to voters as a micro level" for these sorts of matters depending on the district they're in, and that would cloud their judgement and cause decision making that was heavily influenced, not by the details of a particular case, but rather self-preservation in terms of their career.

Hence the reason why I I think it's goof for that pardon power to exist within a branch that's term-limited.

Obviously that "term limited" aspect wasn't the reason at the time that power was allocated (there were no term limits at the time of the drafting of the documents)


The original intent behind leaving it with the executive can be summed up by Hamilton's statement on the matter:
“Humanity and good policy” require that mercy be exercised quickly and decisively.

Other founders had also expressed the concerns that leaving that power with the legislature created the problem of the process being too slow (since bickering was part of the formula), as well as the fact that they didn't want pardons to be used as negotiating bargaining chips.

eg: "We'll consider pardoning your guy, if you agree to the funding provisions we've proposed in this budget bill"

I think their recent performance (and their willingness to hold food security and healthcare hostage) shows they wouldn't be above that.


There's also a potential conflict of interest, if "Congressmen Jones" was the one who sponsored the bill to make "Activity XYZ federally illegal", do you think they'd ever vote for a pardon or clemency for a person who was convicted of it?
 
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essentialsaltes

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People upset about this are most likely very hypocritical.
That'll be hard to determine until someone else tries to subvert the Electoral College with fake electors.
 
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eleos1954

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While I agree that absolute pardon power is something presidents should not have, and that there is a long list of pardons from Biden that appear questionable - most of them appear to be much more petty crimes. At face value, they also don’t appear to be pardons that Biden would have benefited from politically (though digging deeper might reveal otherwise).

The pardons being issued by Trump are high profile cases. We’re talking elections interference here - something that should be one of the most serious crimes.

The false equivalencies that Trump likes to dabble in are dangerous, and we should not buy into them. If you want pardon power taken away, then fine - but don’t let “they are all corrupt” be an excuse for every immoral action.
There are shenanigans going on in government (both sides) that's not an "excuse" that's a fact .... eventually the truth comes out but it can take a while for it to do so.

Yes ... our elections should be a high priority and everything possible should be put in place to ward off "interference" and so far that has not been done. Ending mail in voting and requiring proper ID would help.
 
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JSRG

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Meh.. why is this a thing. Oh I know its because Trump did it. People upset about this are most likely very hypocritical.

The pardon is a thing its not going away. All people arw doing is trying to be divisive and partisan.

This is a prime example about what happens when a president does something new. It opens the door for others to do the same thing. Biden did this and people on the left didn't care that much. Then Trump does it and suddenly its a big deal. Democrats go after Trump and people on the right and the left loved it. Republicans go after those who went after the right and the left is totally upset.

Next Democratic President is going to pardon other people. Its all ready been proven.

Can we all just give up on the faux outrage?
While there certainly are partisans who only care about corrupt pardons when the other side does it, I have seen plenty of people who have criticized both Biden and Trump's pardons.
 
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NxNW

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This is a prime example about what happens when a president does something new. It opens the door for others to do the same thing. Biden did this and people on the left didn't care that much.
Never happened.
Then Trump does it and suddenly its a big deal.
He was pardoning seditionists and would-be assassins.
Democrats go after Trump
Never happened.
 
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NxNW

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Yes ... our elections should be a high priority and everything possible should be put in place to ward off "interference" and so far that has not been done. Ending mail in voting and requiring proper ID would help.
Neither would help.
 
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