He’s a citizen with a Real ID. ICE detained him anyway. Twice.

RocksInMyHead said:

In the case of a John Doe summons, per the articles you linked, this is incorrect:

Click to expand...

However, in the other ones I posted...

If my brother were suspected of tax shenanigans, and they used an administrative summons (not through the courts), they could pull my info as well without any sort of court involvement.

...but just to clarify, is focusing on the minutia of whatever minute differences may exist really a sincere procedural concern? Or is that just to have a reason why "well, this is different"?

Had a Trump appointed, Trump-friendly judge signed off on a some sort of "official" warrant for ICE to raid that particular worksite, would that have changed perceptions about this at all? Or would the complaints have just pivoted toward some sort of racism rationale?

Because in cases where they have obtained warrants, the rhetoric seems to shift towards critiques of "Blackie's warrants"

So my curious mind wonders, is the procedural complaint a front for a gripe that would exist even if the procedural circumstances were different?


"This is wrong because you didn't get a warrant!"

Only matters if the positions haven't been

"Well, this warrant is bogus because it comes from a judge we don't like"
or
"Well, this kind of warrant is bogus because we don't think it passes constitutional muster"


To use the best analogy my tired brain can think of after a 14-hour work day...

If the Westboro Baptist Church was complaining about a Gay pride rally on the grounds of them not getting the proper public permit.

"Would you have been cool with the rally if they'd gotten the right permit?"
"No, we still think it's evil and would have pivoted to a different type of objection and challenged it on public indecency grounds and pulled every legal lever we could to get it shut down"
"Okay, so why even bring up the permit stuff???"


Because that's basically where we're at with the ICE/Illegal immigration conversation.

Had ICE rolled into that work site with a dozen judicial warrants, there still would've been complaints about it being racist and xenophobic etc... The lack of the specific kind of warrant is just the low hanging fruit people are grasping at to justify their outrage over the thing they're actually mad about...which is, the deportation of Latino/Hispanic undocumented individuals in the country.

ThatRobGuy said:

"This is wrong because you didn't get a warrant!"

Only matters if the positions haven't been

"Well, this warrant is bogus because it comes from a judge we don't like"
or
"Well, this kind of warrant is bogus because we don't think it passes constitutional muster"

Click to expand...

I don't believe I've ever made this argument.

DaisyDay said:

So you didn't bother to read the link I provided you in post #69 that you quoted and replied to

Click to expand...

Yes I did read it. It doesn't answer the questions I posed. How many were deported that were here illegally? How many were deported due to their visas being expired, How many were deported who had visas that didn't allow them to work?

DaisyDay said:

It's unclear how/if those with "business visas" were violating those visas. Unfortunately, the government often issues statements that don't comport with reality as shown by videos, subsequent statements, etc.

Click to expand...

So you don't know.

DaisyDay said:

Americans also do NOT feel that way. A LOT of them. Your question is unanswerable as the premise is flawed and not applicable.

Click to expand...

Yes and its probably all the liberals. Why do you want illegals here so badly? Why dont you want them to go home and come legally?

DaisyDay said:

Now that they do understand, even you have admitted that support has waned, so maybe don't claim that unmodified "Americans" support whatever you believe when unmodified "Americans" also do not.

Click to expand...

So? At the time of the election the majority of Americans DID want it done. Americans, 50% now still want it. So yes Ameticans support it. And in fact over 50% STILL support it. When you take all the variables the majority still support it. Its still the minority that don't want it. You are still in the minority.

DaisyDay said:

Okay, then it is a meaningful appeal to emotion.

Click to expand...

Thats exactly what you, the mainstream media and a lot of social.media are doing. Appealing to emotion. I support the law and rhe reasons for the laws in place. You support emotional appeals.

DaisyDay said:

This is in dispute.

Click to expand...

Not according to the story you posted. He wasnt a citizen, natural born OR naturalized.

BCP1928 said:

So what was the deal? Those technicians were not just illegal immigrants sneaking in to work. They were here to help build a plant for Americans to work in. Their employer thought they were legal, their government though they were legal and they thought they were legal and when they had finished the plant they intended to go home. They were actually doing us a favor so we shackle them like criminals?

Click to expand...

Look you can question tactics or procedures all you want. I've actually got no issues with that. I dont agree with some of their procedures. But I don't have any issues with them enforcing the laws. Should they have been shackled? Maybe not. I don't know why they were. Should handcuffs been good enough. Maybe so. I'm not going to argue whether or they should have or should have not be shackled or if handcuffed should.have been enough.

Hentenza said:

Unfortunately that is not what is happening here. Not too many 6’2” caucasians being stopped for suspicion of being in the country illegally. But anyone that “looks” Latino or those that are speaking Spanish are fair game. Hardly a comparison.

Click to expand...

So your argument is that looks should not cause one to be arrested. The converse is also true, looks should not exempt one from arrest.

Fact is people are breaking the law. The argument that they were not committing a crime at the time of arrest is spurious. Their mere presence in the country without permission is a crime in itself.

If I look like people that are breaking the law, I would be expecting to be detained and questioned. But for the fact that illegal immigration is a rampant problem in this country, due to previous lax enforcement, Latinos would not be subject to questioning.

Crying citizenship and rights violations does not make crime go away. It condones and encourages it.

I live in San Antonio, TX. It is the most Latino city in the USA and we voted for Donald Trump because we are sick and tired of citizenship becoming a joke and illegals held up as martyrs

We love Mexican culture in Texas and are decedents of the Original Tejanos who were Mexicans that wanted to breathe free in the Republic of Texas. Yes Anglo brothers helped form the Republic, but Latinos were equal citizens. When it was no longer possible due to threats from Mexico and the failure of Mexico to recognize the Republic of Texas, we joined the United States to preserve freedom. We are proud of our citizenship and will gladly defend it to an officer of HSA in order to have illegals removed that would subvert our freedom

Come to San Antonio and see how many Mexican Americans are crying about ICE. We are not. It’s all left wing propaganda. Citizenship is a privilege. God bless Donald Trump

"Yo prometo lealtad a la bandera de los estados Unidos de America, y a la Republica que representa, una Nacion bajo Dios, entera, con libertad y justicia para todos."

I would hope loyal citizens from Mexico would be supportive of ice. They are the ones that are making it harder for the Mexican Americans. They are harming the economy, they are harming the schools, they are harming Healthcare, they are harming housing costs. They are harming the citizenry by being isolated and not blending in. Illegals are a drain rather than a boon. Even to Mexican Americans.

boughtwithaprice said:

So your argument is that looks should not cause one to be arrested. The converse is also true, looks should not exempt one from arrest.

Fact is people are breaking the law. The argument that they were not committing a crime at the time of arrest is spurious. Their mere presence in the country without permission is a crime in itself.

If I look like people that are breaking the law, I would be expecting to be detained and questioned. But for the fact that illegal immigration is a rampant problem in this country, due to previous lax enforcement, Latinos would not be subject to questioning.

Click to expand...

What does people “look like” that are breaking the law?

boughtwithaprice said:

Crying citizenship and rights violations does not make crime go away. It condones and encourages it.

I live in San Antonio, TX. It is the most Latino city in the USA and we voted for Donald Trump because we are sick and tired of citizenship becoming a joke and illegals held up as martyrs

Click to expand...

Bexar county voted blue which means that it voted for Harris not Trump,

boughtwithaprice said:

We love Mexican culture in Texas and are decedents of the Original Tejanos who were Mexicans that wanted to breathe free in the Republic of Texas. Yes Anglo brothers helped form the Republic, but Latinos were equal citizens. When it was no longer possible due to threats from Mexico and the failure of Mexico to recognize the Republic of Texas, we joined the United States to preserve freedom. We are proud of our citizenship and will gladly defend it to an officer of HSA in order to have illegals removed that would subvert our freedom

Click to expand...

I have lived in Houston, Texas since 1977. I know the history of Texas.

boughtwithaprice said:

Come to San Antonio and see how many Mexican Americans are crying about ICE. We are not. It’s all left wing propaganda. Citizenship is a privilege. God bless Donald Trump

Click to expand...

Been there many times. Love the river entertainment. And, I’m a centrist and an independent not far left.

boughtwithaprice said:

"Yo prometo lealtad a la bandera de los estados Unidos de America, y a la Republica que representa, una Nacion bajo Dios, entera, con libertad y justicia para todos."

Click to expand...

Y tu sabes Espanol o lo traducistes electronicamente? Yo soy Latino y el primer idioma mio es Espanol. Todavia no me gusta que la migra nos detengan simplemente por la apariencia o porque ablamos Espanol.

Hentenza said:

What does people “look like” that are breaking the law?

Bexar county voted blue which means that it voted for Harris not Trump,

https://home.bexar.org/el45a.html

I have lived in Houston, Texas since 1977. I know the history of Texas.

Been there many times. Love the river entertainment. And, I’m a centrist and an independent not far left.

Y tu sabes Espanol o lo traducistes electronicamente? Yo soy Latino y el primer idioma mio es Espanol. Todavia no me gusta que la migra nos detengan simplemente por la apariencia o porque ablamos Espanol.

Click to expand...

With all due respect, I love Mexican culture. I don’t like being singled out because of my race, but if my race was associated with increased criminal activity, that only means that I have to
try harder to prove myself, which I am all too happy to do
There are many criminals crossing the southern border, not just Latinos. The border must be secure. Bexar county may have voted for Harris, but it was due to propaganda.
What does the democrat party do? Play identity politics. We are sick of it and are not falling for it anymore: I do not have Latino American or that idiotic Latinx, nor African American friends. I have American friends, and we all love our country
The same is true in Our Catholics Churches here in San Antonio. Scripture says there is no
Jew nor Greek, but here we say there in no Anglo nor Latino, black nor white, we are one in the body of Christ Jesus. We respect the laws of the nation in which we reside. We do not claim exemption from law due to race.

I’ll grant you that there are right wing crazies and there are left wing crazies. I admire that you are centrist. I am centrist in that Christ died for all people, not identity politics because it is evil in that it attempts to divide and demonize.
That is the very thing Christ preached against. He said love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you, not practice identity politics
Division plays into Satan’s hands. Is Christ divided? God forbid!!

boughtwithaprice said:

With all due respect, I love Mexican culture. I don’t like being singled out because of my race, but if my race was associated with increased criminal activity, that only means that I have to
try harder to prove myself, which I am all too happy to do

Click to expand...

But this kind of mind set leads to all kinds of absurd ideas. Think about it for a minute. Whites commit 69% of all rapes and 74% of all sexual crimes. Should the police stop all whites for suspicion of rape or sexual crimes? Blacks commit 52% of all robberies should all blacks be stopped for suspicion of robbery?


Do you see the absurdity? There is no difference in the look of an illegal alien or a legal alien or citizen walking or driving down the street. There is no sign hanging from their necks identifying them either way. In general, a brown Mexican born here looks no different than one that did not.

Look, I have no problems deporting every illegal alien criminal living in the US which is what Trump ran his campaign under. But the bedrock of our justice system is probable cause and due process. Everyone in the US that is accused of a crime needs to go through the judicial system not just arbitrarily adjudicated guilty. What Trump is doing parallels to what we did to the Japanese during WWII. If our judicial system is not for everyone then the system fails everyone. Who knows another president might decide that Christians need to go and Trump is setting precedence.

boughtwithaprice said:

There are many criminals crossing the southern border, not just Latinos. The border must be secure. Bexar county may have voted for Harris, but it was due to propaganda.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

boughtwithaprice said:

What does the democrat party do? Play identity politics. We are sick of it and are not falling for it anymore: I do not have Latino American or that idiotic Latinx, nor African American friends. I have American friends, and we all love our country
The same is true in Our Catholics Churches here in San Antonio. Scripture says there is no
Jew nor Greek, but here we say there in no Anglo nor Latino, black nor white, we are one in the body of Christ Jesus. We respect the laws of the nation in which we reside. We do not claim exemption from law due to race.

Click to expand...

I did not vote for Harris because of where the Democratic Party its been heading for quite some time. Trump, at the time, was the lesser of two evils but an evil nonetheless. My vote was against Harris but not for Trump. Both parties are operating at their respective extremes and that needs to change.

boughtwithaprice said:

I’ll grant you that there are right wing crazies and there are left wing crazies. I admire that you are centrist. I am centrist in that Christ died for all people, not identity politics because it is evil in that it attempts to divide and demonize.
That is the very thing Christ preached against. He said love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you, not practice identity politics
Division plays into Satan’s hands. Is Christ divided? God forbid!!

Click to expand...

He also said to love the your neighbor and not oppress the stranger. I don’t think that we should demonize a whole race merely because some have crossed the border illegally.

““You shall not oppress a stranger nor torment him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭22‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬