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Vatican stops use of titles for Mary

The Liturgist

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inarguably our greatest teacher regarding Christ

The Holy Apostles are of equal importance. Also St. Luke the Evangelist was the protege of St. Paul, and from him and from St. John the Beloved Disciple, St. Mark the Evangelist, and St. Matthew the Holy Apostle and Evangelist are our primary New Testament sources on the Theotokos (there are also plenty in the Old Testament, such as St. Isaiah the Prophet).

But regarding the Theotokos in general, it is meet that given her holiness most information we have on her comes from the four canonical Gospels and not the Epistles used by the early church to explain the Gospels. Because the simple fact is that unlike much of the Gospels, with complex issues such as how God incarnate in the person of Christ the only begotten Son and Word of the Father, our Advocate and Judge, by whom all things were made, procured our salvation, and how the New Covenant relates to the Old, and the implications for gentiles, the situation of the Theotokos is simple: she is the Virgin descended from King David, and from the patriarch Judah, in whose womb God was conceived in the person of the Son through the actions of God in the person of the Holy Spirit according to the plan of God the Father, for our salvation; all generations have and will call her Blessed*, and in the Gospel of John she commands us to obey her Son; additionally, she adopts the Disciple whom Jesus Loves, which refers both to physically to St. John and spiritually, to us, at the foot of the cross at the command of our Lord.

* St. Luke makes it clear in chapter 12 her blessedness is from her obedience of Him, a point also made by St. Matthew and St. Mark. For this reason, on most feasts of the Theotokos in the Eastern Orthodox church, such as the recent feast of Mary, Joy of All Who Sorrow, and a few weeks ago the Feast of the Protection of the Theotokos, the Gospel concludes with Luke 11:27-28, which might surprise some members, even Western Rite Orthodox, who are used to seeing this text quoted eisegetically in a neo-antidicomarian context. But if we read it according to an exegetical hermeneutic, with the mind of the Church, this passage explains why the Theotokos is called blessed by all generations as the same Evangelist declares in chapter 1 of his account of the Gospel, in the second of the three exquisite Evangelical Canticles he penned, the Magnificat.
 
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The Liturgist

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If one wants to go with argument from silence regarding the complete absence of what supposed to be a crucial component of Christianity,

Arguments from silence are logical fallacies, you do realize that? Indeed I was going to begin my prior post explaining how your argument about St. Paul not discussing the Theotokos relies on an argumentum ex silentio and is thus fallacious, when I saw you posted this.
 
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The Liturgist

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What about all of the early church fathers?

What about them? Where do you think we get the term Theotokos from? Mariology did not appear ex Nihlo in a Dominican priory in the 13th century, contrary to the beliefs of some.

St. Epiphanios by the way is an early church father, as was St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, St. Athanasius, and so on. We don’t encounter anti-Marian sentiment from a major hierarch not associated with Arianism until Nestorius (in the case of Arius, we also don’t get specific anti-Marian sentiment but we do get a denial of the Incarnation which is the same issue that was caused by Nestorianism).
 
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The Liturgist

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I guess I didn't know I was watching this thread. I couldn't find my post to verify that. But I am not too techie.

You don’t need to find your post, the button is at the top of the thread, not your specific post.
 
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Servus

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The Holy Apostles are of equal importance. Also St. Luke the Evangelist was the protege of St. Paul, and from him and from St. John the Beloved Disciple, St. Mark the Evangelist, and St. Matthew the Holy Apostle and Evangelist are our primary New Testament sources on the Theotokos (there are also plenty in the Old Testament, such as St. Isaiah the Prophet).
I meant to include Luke. I was pointing out the epistles and all of the early church writings that are in addition to the Gospels.
But regarding the Theotokos in general, it is meet that given her holiness most information we have on her comes from the four canonical Gospels and not the Epistles used by the early church to explain the Gospels. Because the simple fact is that unlike much of the Gospels, with complex issues such as how God incarnate in the person of Christ the only begotten Son and Word of the Father, our Advocate and Judge, by whom all things were made, procured our salvation, and how the New Covenant relates to the Old, and the implications for gentiles, the situation of the Theotokos is simple: she is the Virgin descended from King David, and from the patriarch Judah, in whose womb God was conceived in the person of the Son through the actions of God in the person of the Holy Spirit according to the plan of God the Father, for our salvation; all generations have and will call her Blessed*, and in the Gospel of John she commands us to obey her Son; additionally, she adopts the Disciple whom Jesus Loves, which refers both to physically to St. John and spiritually, to us, at the foot of the cross at the command of our Lord.

* St. Luke makes it clear in chapter 12 her blessedness is from her obedience of Him, a point also made by St. Matthew and St. Mark. For this reason, on most feasts of the Theotokos in the Eastern Orthodox church, such as the recent feast of Mary, Joy of All Who Sorrow, and a few weeks ago the Feast of the Protection of the Theotokos, the Gospel concludes with Luke 11:27-28, which might surprise some members, even Western Rite Orthodox, who are used to seeing this text quoted eisegetically in a neo-antidicomarian context. But if we read it according to an exegetical hermeneutic, with the mind of the Church, this passage explains why the Theotokos is called blessed by all generations as the same Evangelist declares in chapter 1 of his account of the Gospel, in the second of the three exquisite Evangelical Canticles he penned, the Magnificat.
Most of what's in Mariology was never taught for centuries. Gospel verses about Mary do not teach most what's contained in Mariology, but are rather applied to the teaching of Mariology.
 
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The Liturgist

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Most of what's in Mariology was never taught for centuries. Gospel verses about Mary do not teach most what's contained in Mariology, but are rather applied to the teaching of Mariology.

Mariology firstly is the subset of theology pertaining to the Theotokos. Secondly, tnat is historically inaccurate. We have no evidence of any conflict over any doctrines pertaining to the Theotokos until the late fourth century, when St. Epiphanios documented the small schismatic groups known as the Collyridians and Antidicomarians; the former worshipped the Theotokos as a goddess, like the heretical Palmerians of the present, and the latter took the view that is unfortunately common among many Restorationist, Evangelical, Non Denominational and Radical Reformation churches which denied that which had been affirmed by all early Church Fathers who commented on the matter, and also the leading Protestant figures, namely, the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her status, contra Nestorius, as the Mother of God - doctrines upheld not just by Martin Luther, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, but also John Calvin, who reluctantly conceded the title Theotokos was correct and who never disputed the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos.

Additionally we have second century icons of the Theotokos, third century manuscript attestation of intercessory prayer to her (the specific prayer being one in continual use among the Orthodox), second century attestation of the beliefs of the Orthodox, Roman Catholics and high church Anglicans and some Lutherans concerning the nativity of tne Theotokos (although it is not canonical, but rather appears to parrot the ancient liturgies, the Protoevangelion of James), and likewise similar dating concerning the Theotokos.

No major Christian bishop objected to the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary until Nestorius, and his actions caused the first on-going schism in Christianity, the complex schism between the Church of the East (which in the 1960s separared into the Ancient Church of the East and the Assyrian Church of the East) which embraced Nestorianism in many of its provinces in the Persian Empire for a few centuries, before adopting the Chalcedonian Christological premise under Mar Babai the Great, the Oriental Orthodox, who follow the exact Christology of St. Cyril drafted in response, and the Chalcedonians, who use what I regard to be an adequate but overly complicated formula, which caused the Oriental Orthodox to separate from us over legitimate concerns we had over-reacted to the problem of Monophysitism, which we falslely accused the precursor of the Coptic Orthodox of teaching, when they had anathematized Eutyches and the Monophysites, who then embraced tritheism in the sixth century before becoming extinct.

Now this schism has had a transient property, so there have been periods of restored communion between the three groups, most recently between the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, but under the influence of Old Calendarists, Armenian, Georgian, Russian and Ukrainian nationalists, and misguided Greek, Romanian and Ethiopian monks who have never met a member of the other church, there are many actively seeking to undermine the work of the International Orthodox Theological Association and preserve the EO-OO schism despite the theological dialogue being successfully concluded and despite the success of ecumenical agreements between the Copts and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox and between the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox in preserving the Christian population in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, where the four churches converge.

This shows just how damage continues to be caused by the violent persecution Nestorius initiated against members of the Church of Constantinople who insisted on using the traditional term “Theotokos” taught by St. John Chrysostom vs. his preferred “Christotokos.” Conversely, unlike his opponents, and unlike St. Chrysostom, who was death marched for calling out the consort-Empress of Emperor Theodosius II for wasting money on a solid gold commode, Nestorius lived out his life peacefully in exile and wrote a self-serving biography, the Bazaar of Heraclides, and his supporters in Antioch emigrated to Nisibis where they proceeded to spread his teaching into the church in the Persian Empire.

Thus contrary to what some will tell you, no one has ever been persecuted by the Orthodox for rejecting any Orthodox doctrines concerning the Theotokos. In the case of the Roman Catholic church, the status of Mary was not the main issue with the Protestant reformation; the followers of St. Jan Hus venerated her (which is why he’s venerated as a saint by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia) as did the Martin Luther, who actively prayed an Orthodox version of the Hail Mary, as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch likes to point out, but not the intercessory prayers we use, but not seeking the intercession of the theotokos has never been regarded as a theological error (although I do strongly reccommend it from personal experience), whereas not venerating the Theotokos was classified as such by St. Epiphanios in the late fourth century, and if memory serves the Second Council of Nicaea also directed this, as did equivalent Oriental Orthodox canons and liturgical practices.

Widespread rejection of the veneration of the Theotokos did not become a thing until Calvinism in the 16th century, but even Calvin was not a Nestorian, admitting the Theotokos was a perpetual virgin and the Mother of God.
 
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The Liturgist

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so the argument from silence isn't persuasive

Indeed, since not only is it fallacious in this context for reasons you point out, but also factually inaccurate, since we have Patristic material from the second century affirming important Marian doctrines.
 
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Fervent

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Simply mentioning Mariology being a crucial component of Christianity would not have required writing an exhaustive theology. If one wants to go with argument from silence regarding the complete absence of what supposed to be a crucial component of Christianity, that can be applied to just about anything the Bible and the early church never taught.
There is no "complete absence", Marian theology pops up exactly where we would expect it to. It would have been jarring in the course of dealing with other issues for the NT authors to have developed Marian doctrines that had no bearing on the topics they were dealing with. But as @The Liturgist rightfully points out your claim is factually inaccurate since several of the authors you mentioned do develop Marian doctrines, such as Justin Martyr in the Dialogue with Trypho where he parallels Jesus/Adam and Mary/Eve. There is no silence on the topic, Marian doctrines are spoken of in exactly the kinds of places we would expect them to pop up.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I'm sure Collyridians and Antidicomarians etc etc is simple to you. But most people would need an encyclopedia and a dictionary to decipher such posts.

But thanks for translating all of that into something concise and comprehensible.
I mean no offense; you have an internet interface with a keyboard; you do know how to find words and meanings in the inter-web?? Also, don't expect people to hand everything to you, if you don't have the energy to fully engage in a conversation, then maybe you should not be in the thread. We should be so lucky to have posters with that level of knowledge, wisdom and intelligence. I for one am thankful that we have some posters like this, as I do learn a lot.

Blessings.
 
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