Vatican stops use of titles for Mary

The Liturgist · 2025-11-16T07:23:15-0600

Servus said:
Less Mary, More Jesus.

St. Epiphanios the 4th century Orthodox bishop of Cyprus, included in his Panarion (modern equivalence translation: first aid kit, literal translation: medicine container), described the Collyridians and Antidicomarians, two groups who he classified as being as erroneous as the Alogi, Arians, Manichaeans, Pneumatomachs and Origenists, because the Collyridians worshipped the Blessed Virgin Mary and the latter refused her veneration and denied her virginity.

The Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and High Church Anglicans have always threaded the needle between these two areas, with the Orthodox, that being my church, always venerating Our Lady the most in liturgical worship (such as the Divine Liturgy, the Divine Office, and various sacramental services and other services such as the Akathist and Moleben), but with the Catholics engaging in more private devotions, often public, liturgized private devotions such as the Rosary and Novena, while liturgical veneration, (even the exquisite Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which was part of the prayer rule of several religious orders, largely disappeared, along with the similar Office of the Dead, with the 1969 reforms) has continued to recede, except in some of the Eastern Catholic churches.

Servus · 2025-11-16T08:15:48-0600

The Liturgist said:
St. Epiphanios the 4th century Orthodox bishop of Cyprus, included in his Panarion (modern equivalence translation: first aid kit, literal translation: medicine container), described the Collyridians and Antidicomarians, two groups who he classified as being as erroneous as the Alogi, Arians, Manichaeans, Pneumatomachs and Origenists, because the Collyridians worshipped the Blessed Virgin Mary and the latter refused her veneration and denied her virginity.

The Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans and High Church Anglicans have always threaded the needle between these two areas, with the Orthodox, that being my church, always venerating Our Lady the most in liturgical worship (such as the Divine Liturgy, the Divine Office, and various sacramental services and other services such as the Akathist and Moleben), but with the Catholics engaging in more private devotions, often public, liturgized private devotions such as the Rosary and Novena, while liturgical veneration, (even the exquisite Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which was part of the prayer rule of several religious orders, largely disappeared, along with the similar Office of the Dead, with the 1969 reforms) has continued to recede, except in some of the Eastern Catholic churches.

That's really complicated and convoluted. Following and focusing on Jesus alone is a lot more straightforward.

The Liturgist · 2025-11-16T08:41:56-0600

Servus said:
That's really complicated and convoluted.

Really? Seems simple to me, and it seemed simple to the Early Church Fathers and to Martin Luther. We worship Christ our True God, together with His unoriginate Father and the Holy Spirit, ever one God, and venerate those who magnify Him, especially the Theotokos.

It should be noted the writings of St. Epiphanios are not considered controversial, for he is venerated by all ancient churches, including the Church of the East, which has some Nestorian influence despite rejecting Nestorianism in the 7th century under Mar Babai the Great; indeed some modern iconoclasts ill-advisedly have tried to appeal to the writings of St. Epiphanios as proof of ancient iconoclasm, unaware of the problem of Arian iconography (which depicted our Lord as a beardless youth so as to stress difference from the Father rather than Nicene consubstantiality, and which we keep finding archeological examples of beyond the Arian Baptistry at Ravenna, most recently in the form of a glass paten from the fourth century).

Of course the idea of iconoclasts appealing to the writings of an early church father who regarded not venerating the Blessed Virgin Mary as an error equivalent to worshipping her is something I find greatly amusing, since almost all modern iconoclasts are neo-anti-dicoMarianists, usually crypto-Nestorian, and thus their abuse of the Panarion seems to me the apex of eisegesis. Sometimes irony can be pretty ironic, as William Shatner said in a moment of great satire.

Servus · 2025-11-16T08:49:35-0600

The Liturgist said:
Really? Seems simple to me. We worship Christ our True God and venerate those who magnify Him, especially the Theotokos.

I'm sure Collyridians and Antidicomarians etc etc is simple to you. But most people would need an encyclopedia and a dictionary to decipher such posts.

But thanks for translating all of that into something concise and comprehensible.

The Liturgist · 2025-11-16T08:53:04-0600

Servus said:
I'm sure Collyridians and Antidicomarians etc etc is simple to you. But most people would need an encyclopedia and a dictionary to decipher your posts.

Why? I explained what they were. Why would an additional reference be required? It does exist, by the way, and I literally cited it (and the Panarion is in English translation).

It seems to me not unreasonable to quote a Patristic work when that work is relevant and self-explanatory.

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-11-16T08:56:07-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Because some people here think because I am not Roman Catholic, it automatically makes me ignorant

We all kind of do that . Don’t we? Think our church or religious beliefs are far superior to others who just don’t understand. And people of other religions or none at all, well… poor things… while they still have a chance to repent like me, they are on their way to Hell.

The Liturgist · 2025-11-16T09:00:40-0600

Akita Suggagaki said:
We all kind of do that . Don’t we? Think our church or religious beliefs are far superior to others who just don’t understand. And people of other religions or none at all, well… poor things… while they still have a chance to repent like me, they are on their way to Hell.

Indeed, its easier to be the Pharisee who thanks God for not being like other people than to confess oneself as the chief of sinners, something I know from plenty of personal experience doing the former, confusing blessings received unworthily with actual superiority.

Thus all Christians who like me pray to Christ for our salvation, as unprofitable servants and Publicans, I seek to unite my prayer with, for I am dust, and to dust I will return, and remain, except for Christ in me.

kuwn · 2025-11-16T09:12:42-0600

Why was this sent to me privately? I do not want private messages of someone's post. Please do not send me more private messages. THANK YOU

Valletta · 2025-11-16T09:21:05-0600

Servus said:
That's really complicated and convoluted. Following and focusing on Jesus alone is a lot more straightforward.

You missed the simple point. Mary always leads us to Jesus. It's like the Bible, we wouldn't say too much Bible, not enough Jesus. It's the same with the sacraments, through the sacraments we are brought closer to Jesus.

Servus · 2025-11-16T09:36:25-0600

Valletta said:
You missed the simple point. Mary always leads us to Jesus. It's like the Bible, we wouldn't say too much Bible, not enough Jesus. It's the same with the sacraments, through the sacraments we are brought closer to Jesus.

The point was lost in a forest of Epiphanios Panarion Collyridians Antidicomarians Alogi Manichaeans Pneumatomach Origenists etc.

The Gospel leads us to Jesus and the Holy Spirit brings us closer to him.

Fervent · 2025-11-16T09:42:49-0600

Servus said:
The point was lost in a forest of Epiphanios Panarion Collyridians Antidicomarians Alogi Manichaeans Pneumatomach Origenists etc.

The Gospel leads us to Jesus and the Holy Spirit brings us closer to him.

Jesus cannot be separated from the Body of Christ, and removing Him from the surrounding context including Marian titles is more likely to lead astray to a false Jesus than to lead to understanding who Jesus is. Denial of Mary more often is a denial of the incarnation than specifically an issue with Mary, because dealing with His maternity requires we wrestle with the mystery of God made man.

Servus · 2025-11-16T09:52:06-0600

Valletta said:
It's like the Bible, we wouldn't say too much Bible, not enough Jesus.

Actually I would. There's plenty of people who know the Bible cover to cover who don't know Jesus very well. People who spend gobs of time in the Bible studying eschatology as one example, and have too much focus on that and not enough focus on Jesus.

Clare73 · 2025-11-16T09:57:03-0600

Servus said:
Actually I would. There's plenty of people who know the Bible cover to cover who don't know Jesus very well. People who spend gobs of time in the Bible studying eschatology as one example, and have too much focus on that and not enough focus on Jesus.

As well as a low view of the one body of Christ, the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:23).

Servus · 2025-11-16T09:58:56-0600

Fervent said:
Jesus cannot be separated from the Body of Christ, and removing Him from the surrounding context including Marian titles is more likely to lead astray to a false Jesus than to lead to understanding who Jesus is. Denial of Mary more often is a denial of the incarnation than specifically an issue with Mary, because dealing with His maternity requires we wrestle with the mystery of God made man.

Inetresting how Paul, inarguably our greatest teacher regarding Christ, never mentioned Mary in that context. Nor did John, Peter, James, Clement, Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Tertullian, Polycarp etc.

Fervent · 2025-11-16T10:01:12-0600

Servus said:
Inetresting how Paul, inarguably our greatest teacher regarding Christ, never mentioned Mary in that context. Nor did John, Peter, James, Clement, Justin Martyr, Ignatius, Tertullian, Polycarp etc.

Paul's letters weren't exhaustive theologies, they were particular letters intended to address specific issues. So why would we expect him to discuss Mary, as if there were a controversy?

The Liturgist · 2025-11-16T10:21:09-0600

kuwn said:
Why was this sent to me privately? I do not want private messages of someone's post. Please do not send me more private messages. THANK YOU

You need to hit the button at the top of this thread that says “Unfollow” or you will be alerted any time someone posts to a thread you are watching.

kuwn · 2025-11-16T10:23:30-0600

The Liturgist said:
You need to hit the button at the top of this thread that says “Unfollow” or you will be alerted any time someone posts to a thread you are watching.

I guess I didn't know I was watching this thread. I couldn't find my post to verify that. But I am not too techie.

Servus · 2025-11-16T10:24:47-0600

Fervent said:
Paul's letters weren't exhaustive theologies, they were particular letters intended to address specific issues. So why would we expect him to discuss Mary, as if there were a controversy?

What about all of the early church fathers? Basically what's being said is people weren't being drawn to Christ until Mariology was established.

Fervent · 2025-11-16T10:26:51-0600

Servus said:
What about all of the early church fathers? Basically what's being said is people weren't being drawn to Christ until Mariology was established.

The same issue, they weren't writing exhaustive theologies. We see Marian discussion exactly where we would expect to find it, so the argument from silence isn't persuasive because the early writers weren't dealing with anti-Marian sentiment so there was no need to detail it.

Servus · 2025-11-16T10:45:16-0600

Fervent said:
The same issue, they weren't writing exhaustive theologies. We see Marian discussion exactly where we would expect to find it, so the argument from silence isn't persuasive because the early writers weren't dealing with anti-Marian sentiment so there was no need to detail it.

Simply mentioning Mariology being a crucial component of Christianity would not have required writing an exhaustive theology. If one wants to go with argument from silence regarding the complete absence of what supposed to be a crucial component of Christianity, that can be applied to just about anything the Bible and the early church never taught.

Vatican stops use of titles for Mary

Traditional Liturgical Christian

<><

Traditional Liturgical Christian

<><

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Newbie

Well-Known Member

<><

Well-Known Member

<><

Blood-bought

<><

Well-Known Member

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Newbie

<><

Well-Known Member

<><

Similar threads