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Gallup: Drop in U.S. Religiosity Among Largest in World

2PhiloVoid

Mary Shelley was .... right!
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That's nice, but the Christian nationalists are trying to seize the government and shove their religion down our society. That's the whole project at this point for them.

To some moderate extent that's true, but even so, it doesn't mean we should work and pray that Democrats will regain the presidency, congress and senate so we can turn this thing into a Chinese Democracy.
 
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Hans Blaster

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To some moderate extent that's true,
No. No. No. This is exactly what the Trump admin is doing.
but even so, it doesn't mean we should work and pray that Democrats will regain the presidency, congress and senate so we can turn this thing into a Chinese Democracy.
That would never work and China doesn't even have democracy so "Chinese Democracy" is a nonsensical phrase.
 
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Fervent

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Hans Blaster

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Trump is just the Boomer's last gasp.
He may be the last boomer president, but the Trump admin is still a Christian Nationalist operation from #2 on down.
That's kind of his point with the term.
On second thought it was probably reference to his preference for Guns 'n' Roses.
 
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Fervent

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He may be the last boomer president, but the Trump admin is still a Christian Nationalist operation from #2 on down.
That appears to me more to be a matter of "culture" than concern for religiosity. A false image of a supposedly Christian past that is yearned for because that was when America was at its peak.
On second thought it was probably reference to his preference for Guns 'n' Roses.
Perhaps, though my suspicion is it was meant as a bit of sarcasm regarding the trajectory of the American left towards anti-democratic forms of communism.
 
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Hans Blaster

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That appears to me more to be a matter of "culture" than concern for religiosity. A false image of a supposedly Christian past that is yearned for because that was when America was at its peak.
It's not that their Christian nationalist plans will create "religiosity" but rather that the decline of religiosity will make the attempt to impose a semi-theocracy will never come again.
Perhaps, though my suspicion is it was meant as a bit of sarcasm regarding the trajectory of the American left towards anti-democratic forms of communism.
:rolleyes:
 
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Fervent

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It's not that their Christian nationalist plans will create "religiosity" but rather that the decline of religiosity will make the attempt to impose a semi-theocracy will never come again.
A Christian theocracy, perhaps. But I wouldn't write off an Islamic surge and the imposition of Sharia law through the abuse of Western tolerance.
Make all the faces you want, it doesn't change the vein of illerberalism that is infecting leftist politics.
 
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Hans Blaster

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A Christian theocracy, perhaps. But I wouldn't write off an Islamic surge and the imposition of Sharia law through the abuse of Western tolerance.

LOL. Muslims are like 2% of the US population.
Make all the faces you want, it doesn't change the vein of illerberalism that is infecting leftist politics.
I see. You have confused "Democrats" with "Leftists". Leftists have always been a rare breed of weirdo. They are nowhere near power.
 
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Fervent

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LOL. Muslims are like 2% of the US population.
Sure, but there's a map that they follow to turn the Western countries tolerance against them. First its quoting from the Medina period and preaching religious tolerance, then it's seeking special status for Islam in the guise of combatting Islamaphobia and focusing on the early Meccan period, then when they've built up enough numbers they go full scale Sharia law and follow the late Meccan verses. Most change only requires ~10% of the population to be on board, as 80% will sit idly by.
I see. You have confused "Democrats" with "Leftists". Leftists have always been a rare breed of weirdo. They are nowhere near power.
Not quite, because the Democrats tend to be driven by the hard left. Not voters, but those who are actually in the halls of power.
 
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RDKirk

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Not quite, because the Democrats tend to be driven by the hard left. Not voters, but those who are actually in the halls of power.
As I've explained before, the DNC has been controlled by Critical Theory ideologists since 2008. The struggle at the top between the old guard liberals and the CT ideologists occurred from 2008 through 2020, with the infighting being visible in hindsight. Clinton (old-school liberal) was rather suddenly replaced by Obama (a CT ideologist).

Yang, Klobuchar, Gabbard and some others are younger, but not CT ideologists, so they had to go...permanently. Sanders was neutered ( some of the Democratic Party rank-and-file did notice that, but didn't understand what was happening). Others of the Old Guard like Pelosi and Warren just decided to quietly let their clocks run out. Biden was senile enough to be controlled. The ones you see in good standing in the DNC right now are firm CT ideologists. But notice that none of them are Party leaders. The Party is run by committee and will pick an appropriate mouthpiece when the time comes.
 
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Fervent

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The Party is run by committee and will pick an appropriate mouthpiece when the time comes.
I think it's pretty clear they're most likely going to go with an empty suit with a flashy smile. Unless they're scared of his past coming up again, that is.
 
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rockytopva

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It takes the Holy Spirit to make the change in someones life. Here is a story of a man who had beginnings of having to go to a church he hated attending...

"Grandfather was kind to me and considerate of me, yet he was strict with me. I worked along with him in the field when the weather was agreeable and when it was inclement I helped him in his hatter's shop, for the Civil War was in progress and he had returned at odd times to hatmaking. It was my business in the shop to stretch foxskins and coonskins across a wood-horse and with a knife, made for that purpose, pluck the hair from the fur. I despise the odor of foxskins and coonskins to this good day. He had me to walk two miles every Sunday to Dandridge to Church service and Sunday-school, rain or shine, wet or dry, cold or hot; yet he had fat horses standing in his stable. But he was such a blue-stocking Presbyterian that he never allowed a bridle to go on a horse's head on Sunday. The beasts had to have a day of rest. Old Doctor Minnis was the pastor, and he was the dryest and most interminable preacher I ever heard in my life. He would stand motionless and read his sermons from manuscript for one hour and a half at a time and sometimes longer. Grandfather would sit and never take his eyes off of him, except to glance at me to keep me quiet. It was torture to me." - George Clark Rankin

And then ending up at his uncles church where he underwent a transformation that would eventually lead him in the ministry. Without that transformation we will lose the generation every time... After having attended a lively church for some quite time he finally broke through (Full story here - The Life of George Clark Rankin)

When evening came I was ready for Church service and was glad to go. It required no urging. Another large crowd was present and the preacher was as earnest as ever. I did not give much heed to the sermon. In fact, I do not recall a word of it. I was anxious for him to conclude and give me a chance to go to the altar. I had gotten it into my head that there was some real virtue in the mourner's bench; and when the time came I was one of the first to prostrate myself before the altar in prayer. Many others did likewise. Two or three good people at intervals knelt by me and spoke encouragingly to me, but they did not help me. Their talks were mere exhortations to earnestness and faith, but there was no explanation of faith, neither was there any light thrown upon my mind and heart. I wrought myself up into tears and cries for help, but the whole situation was dark and I hardly knew why I cried, or what was the trouble with me. Now and then others would arise from the altar in an ecstasy of joy, but there was no joy for me. When the service closed I was discouraged and felt that maybe I was too hardhearted and the good Spirit could do nothing for me.

After we went home I tossed on the bed before going to sleep and wondered why God did not do for me what he had done for mother and what he was doing in that meeting for those young people at the altar. I could not understand it. But I resolved to keep on trying, and so dropped off to sleep. The next day I had about the same experience and at night saw no change in my condition. And so for several nights I repeated the same distressing experience. The meeting took on such interest that a day service was adopted along with the night exercises, and we attended that also. And one morning while I bowed at the altar in a very disturbed state of mind Brother Tyson, a good local preacher and the father of Rev. J. F. Tyson, now of the Central Conference, sat down by me and, putting his hand on my shoulder, said to me: "Now I want you to sit up awhile and let's talk this matter over quietly. I am sure that you are in earnest, for you have been coming to this altar night after night for several days. I want to ask you a few simple questions." And the following questions were asked and answered:

"My son, do you not love God?"

"I cannot remember when I did not love him."

"Do you believe on his Son, Jesus Christ?"

"I have always believed on Christ. My mother taught me that from my earliest recollection."

"Do you accept him as your Savior?"

"I certainly do, and have always done so."

"Can you think of any sin that is between you and the Savior?"

"No, sir; for I have never committed any bad sins."

"Do you love everybody?"

"Well, I love nearly everybody, but I have no ill-will toward any one. An old man did me a wrong not long ago and I acted ugly toward him, but I do not care to injure him."

"Can you forgive him?"

"Yes, if he wanted me to."

"But, down in your heart, can you wish him well?"

"Yes, sir; I can do that."

"Well, now let me say to you that if you love God, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior from sin and if you love your fellowmen and intend by God's help to lead a religious life, that's all there is to religion. In fact, that is all I know about it."

Then he repeated several passages of Scriptures to me proving his assertions. I thought a moment and said to him: "But I do not feel like these young people who have been getting religion night after night. I cannot get happy like them. I do not feel like shouting."

The good man looked at me and smiled and said: "Ah, that's your trouble. You have been trying to feel like them. Now you are not them; you are yourself. You have your own quiet disposition and you are not turned like them. They are excitable and blustery like they are. They give way to their feelings. That's all right, but feeling is not religion. Religion is faith and life. If you have violent feeling with it, all good and well, but if you have faith and not much feeling, why the feeling will take care of itself. To love God and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, turning away from all sin, and living a godly life, is the substance of true religion."

That was new to me, yet it had been my state of mind from childhood. For I remembered that away back in my early life, when the old preacher held services in my grandmother's house one day and opened the door of the Church, I went forward and gave him my hand. He was to receive me into full membership at the end of six months' probation, but he let it pass out of his mind and failed to attend to it.

As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
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rockytopva

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If George Clark Rankin would not have moved in with his uncle into a good family and church would he have every found himself in ministry? I worry that the effects of Covid have encouraged people into a world that makes little difference to the heart.

"It is the heart that experiences God, not the reason." -Blaise Pascal

Without the heart felt experience I would look for very little change religiously. If I tried to help things along with my mental logic I would even make things worse. So, as far as I am concerned, my best option is to pray!
 
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RDKirk

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It seems pretty obvious that church participation dropped with Covid. There are lots of Christians with lots of motivations. My interpretation is that many people decided they didn't miss church that much and didn't find it worth coming back.

I'm not surprised that this leaves us closer to other 1st world countries. Our societies aren't that different, though we may have a larger fraction of religious conservatives.

It's interesting to see what has happened to CF. I've noticed that serious theological discussion has nearly disappeared. It's mostly politics. The Christian community discussions, except Catholics, are nearly (and in many cases completely) dead. Theology groups are at the level of Reddit in sophistication.
I am not convinced that most of those discussions matter, even here, and even as a Christian.

Tell me how it affects the mission...otherwise, it's worst than a waste of time because it causes division over words.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Sure, but there's a map that they follow to turn the Western countries tolerance against them. First its quoting from the Medina period and preaching religious tolerance, then it's seeking special status for Islam in the guise of combatting Islamaphobia and focusing on the early Meccan period, then when they've built up enough numbers they go full scale Sharia law and follow the late Meccan verses. Most change only requires ~10% of the population to be on board, as 80% will sit idly by.
And where is there only 10% Muslim population where this has happened?
Not quite, because the Democrats tend to be driven by the hard left. Not voters, but those who are actually in the halls of power.
Oh great, another poster who doesn't know how liberal & progressives aren't leftists. You need to get a leftist to explain it to you.
 
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Fervent

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And where is there only 10% Muslim population where this has happened?
Not specifically Muslim, but major political changes in general tend to break down to 10% on one side, 10% on the other, and 80% who are simply worried about their day to day living and can't be bothered with bigger issues.
Oh great, another poster who doesn't know how liberal & progressives aren't leftists. You need to get a leftist to explain it to you.
You're splitting hairs, and seem to be invoking a bit of a no true scotsman thing.
 
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mindlight

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It seems pretty obvious that church participation dropped with Covid. There are lots of Christians with lots of motivations. My interpretation is that many people decided they didn't miss church that much and didn't find it worth coming back.

I'm not surprised that this leaves us closer to other 1st world countries. Our societies aren't that different, though we may have a larger fraction of religious conservatives.

It's interesting to see what has happened to CF. I've noticed that serious theological discussion has nearly disappeared. It's mostly politics. The Christian community discussions, except Catholics, are nearly (and in many cases completely) dead. Theology groups are at the level of Reddit in sophistication.
Our English speaking church both lost and gained people through covid but we are internationals in the German context. Our numbers have remained solid as have most of the international congregations in my city. We have increased the amount of in depth teaching due to demand. German churches, by contrast, have been bleeding members and the contrast between the global and the local is stark. Some German churches are boosting the fees on international churches due to their own financial crises. You see it in steep reductions in the numbers graduating with theology degrees here also.

In the West this is a distracted generation and the noise of social media and netflix encourages a sort of shallow moral relativism replacing God and blood ties with ones made by choice and confusing the clarity of the call to worship. On the other hand many young people appear to understand how superficial the online discussion has become in the Tik Tok generation. Generation Z often nominally subscribe to the faith of their parents but do not go to church and are clearly vulnerable to the insidious influence of liberal culture. I have to believe that this situation is not sustainable in the long run. No one can stay that shallow and remain sane and the mental health statistics in the young are terrible. But when they come back to the questions they have about God who will be left to instruct them and will they have the concentration span to be able to absorb them?

I suspect that the theological depth to lead a revival in the West will come from the global church not the local one.
 
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