Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

Light of the East · 2025-11-12T22:52:33-0600

Dan1988 said:
You have read lies, because the original scriptures are not in Greek at all. Greeks didn't exist when the OT was written. The only reason some of the NT was written in Greek was because Greek was a common language 2000 years ago, n
I notice you deny the bible doctrines of "election to salvation" and "Reprobation", (which the Lord Jesus taught), but you embrace the teachings of the heretics who reject what the Lord Jesus taught.

Regarding the demonic dogma of "election unto salvation," Jesus taught no such thing. You have failed to realize to whom both Jesus and Paul were speaking when they were speaking of election. The election spoke of referred to those who would be spared from the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, a pivotal moment in the history of the Kingdom of God and the Covenant people of God. According to most Preterist writers I have read - and I tend to agree with them because of Matthew chapter 24 - the destruction of Jerusalem was the official end of the Old Covenant and the official beginning of the New Covenant or the new age, spoke of in Matthew 24:3

It is not "I" who am rejecting truth and embracing heresy. The particulars of Calvinism were not taught by any of the Early Fathers of the Church. That alone should make you stop and pause, but Calvinists reject most of the Fathers of the Church with the exception of Augustine and parts of his theology and soteriology which he completely screwed up

You can accuse God of being an evil monster, but God is not mocked, because every man will reap what he sows.

Apparently you have never heard of the teaching of Lex Talionis either, which simply means that the punishment fits the offence. Now tell me what offence deserves torture without end. I will say it again - the "god" of Calvinism is a monster - pure and simple!

Neogaia777 · 2025-11-13T03:42:04-0600

Determinism is the truth, and certain people are always needed to afflct those going to heaven before they can be qualified enough to get to go there, and that's what these realities are for before people getting to go there, get to go there. But those who were just only primarily meant to just do the afflicting ever, are never meant to go there ever, but just re-repeat each of their nearly exact same kind of existences again each any every single time one of these newer, but now other, fallen creations are re-made, or are recreated, or re-starts, or re-repeats itself again. And because determinism is the truth, this has always been forever, and will always be forever, and cannot be changed, but they are never aware of this each and every single time however, etc.

God Bless.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-11-13T05:12:55-0600

Neogaia777 said:
Determinism is the truth, and certain people are always needed to afflct those going to heaven before they can be qualified enough to get to go there, and that's what these realities are for before people getting to go there, get to go there. But those who were just only primarily meant to just do the afflicting ever, are never meant to go there ever, but just re-repeat each of their nearly exact same kind of existences again each any every single time one of these newer, but now other, fallen creations are re-made, or are recreated, or re-starts, or re-repeats itself again. And because determinism is the truth, this has always been forever, and will always be forever, and cannot be changed, but they are never aware of this each and every single time however, etc.

God Bless.

Although I'm a determinist, there are several major flaws in classic Calvinist determinism, as follows:

Most determinists really can't say they themselves are saved, unless they endure to the end, (and contrary to most of their claims otherwise=i.e. OSAS)

It's one thing to adhere to determinism, but it's quite another to define exactly what that is or consists of BECAUSE only The Sovereign can really determine what that is or consists of.

There are valid alternatives to classic determinism, that shows for example that ALL people are predetermined to be saved by Jesus, and ALL devils are predetermined, YES, predetermined by Jesus to the LoF.

It's one thing to claim belief in a Divine Sovereign God.

It's quite another to claim that what that is or consists of are the concepts of "some guy" who didn't even know he was saved

And if freewillers or any believers really thought about the scriptural fact that devil and his messengers are going to hell/the LoF, then they are "universally" believing that is true for every devil and "predeterminist" if they believe the devils aren't going to avoid that fate.

So in this way technically every Christian is both a predeterminist and a Universalist with regards to this specific fate for devils.

Dan1988 · 2025-11-13T06:38:28-0600

SarahsKnight said:
Ah, of course. The ol' "You deny Jesus' teachings!" and "Are you calling God a monster?! *gasp* " strawman arguments from the eternal torment proponents.

Say, what did Jesus teach about what happens to souls who end up in "hell" (the original word was Gehenna in the gospel verses, if my understanding is correct, but hey, why not just throw the term hell over it instead in the King James translation and get those masses in the pews automatically thinking about a Dante's Inferno-esque place of endless suffering, instead, right?), anyways? Ah, yes; He used the term destroy in Matthew 10:28.

And no, you aren't going to convince me that "destroy doesn't mean what you annihilationists think it means", so please don't bother. The point is, we have good reason to believe Jesus taught something differently concerning hell/Gehenna/second death than eternal conscious torment proponents do, so no one is outright rejecting anything that came out of Jesus' mouth. It's just the hell proponents wanting to assert that anyone who disagrees with them on that particular theological subject are denying Christ and His teachings; a nice and simple auto-shutdown tactic that will get anyone merely questioning the Scriptural legitimacy of eternal torment in hell to immediately shut up and question no further, because they've all but been plainly told that they go against God Himself if they do so.

I tell you one thing, starting about 11 years ago after wondering and searching on this matter, I no longer can do that. Quite frankly I instead worry that I would be committing a great sin of insulting God and maligning His character by willingly going back to believing in the eternal torment and immortal souls doctrine just because it's the most fearful interpretation of the fate of unbelievers, when I have been shown that it just doesn't have sufficient basis in Sctipture from a plainer reading (and without the sheer presupposition that all human souls were created immortal).

And I just can't see anymore that Jesus, the Slaughtered Lamb, Who went to the cross and endured at least six hours of intense suffering and humiliation for the sake of us idiotic, and sometimes downright wicked, human sinners - while teaching us The Golden Rule, to love our neighbors and our enemies, to forgive seventy times seven, etc. - is also intent on burning His enemies alive forever. It just doesn't compute, I'm sorry.

Who are you to tell God that He can't torment unbelievers in the lake of fire for all eternity. He said it, you reject it at your own peril.

I would never attempt to convince you to believe what God has said, because I know most "professing Christians" don't believe what God has said, because it hurts their feelings, I get it.

You obviously reject, Matt 4:4 "But He answered and said, 'It is written: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”

walter45 · 2025-11-13T15:17:53-0600

BNR32FAN said:
Why didn’t you quote any of the passages that do actually support eternal punishment?

Some of the scriptures say the Wicked will vanish, disappear, not get life, be destroyed. Wouldn't any of these be considered as eternal punishment?

Light of the East · 2025-11-13T16:20:05-0600

Dan1988 said:
Who are you to tell God that He can't torment unbelievers in the lake of fire for all eternity. He said it, you reject it at your own peril.

Because God is love, and love simply does not act in that manner.

I would never attempt to convince you to believe what God has said, because I know most "professing Christians" don't believe what God has said, because it hurts their feelings, I get it.

Dan1988 said:
You obviously reject, Matt 4:4 "But He answered and said, 'It is written: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”

Yeah, except that people like you don't live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. If you don't like what He said, you start looking for "weasel clauses" and other ways to avoid what you don't like. The Eucharist, for example, is a classic case of this. For the first fifteen centuries, it was known that the Eucharist is exactly what Christ said it would be - the very Body and Blood of our Lord which hung on the Cross for our salvation.

The same is true for those who do not like the idea of God really and actually having a love so expansive and great that He forgives and heals ALL sinners, not just those we like. (In other words, we don't like Hitler, so how dare God ultimately save him, but our drunken father who beats us, well, perhaps we hope that God's mercy will override his sins.)

timothyu · 2025-11-13T16:47:41-0600

The idea for God is to get rid of adversity, not those tempted by it, as self-awareness would exist in the Kingdom as it does here. We are useless to God without it, but it id what leads human and elohim alike, to pursue self-interest.

Der Alte · 2025-11-13T17:23:57-0600

Without addressing any particular post here is my view on Biblical "eternal punishment"
Jeremiah 13:11
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I [God] caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Matthew 7:22-23
(22) On that day, [day of judgement] many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many powerful deeds in your name?’
(23) Then I [Jesus] will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’
[When Jesus says never He does not mean some day by and by]
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

SarahsKnight · 2025-11-13T21:51:41-0600

Dan1988 said:
Who are you to tell God that He can't torment unbelievers in the lake of fire for all eternity. He said it, you reject it at your own peril.

I would never attempt to convince you to believe what God has said, because I know most "professing Christians" don't believe what God has said, because it hurts their feelings, I get it.

You obviously reject, Matt 4:4 "But He answered and said, 'It is written: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”

Nice try, but you just proved my point above in my previous post that all eternal torment proponents ultimately do to "win" their argument is accuse conditionalist/annihilationists like myself and universalits that they go against God, and hope that it gets people scared enough to not argue against them any further, or at least question the Scriptural veracity of eternal torment.

Funny how you holler and bellow that I am telling God He can't torture people for eternity if He wants - when I said no such thing, of course; just because I said I believe Scripture overwhelmingly indicates the fate of unbelievers as literal destruction rather than eternal conscious torment, doesn't mean that I say He can't do it if He wants .... although again personally I believe I malign His revealed character in Scripture if I do claim that He will torture for eternity, and I fear to do so - when what i did do was use words from Matthew that are recorded as being spoken by the Son of God Himself: Fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

Again, in just that verse alone, apart from plenty of others that use plain wording such as destroy, destruction, consumed, perish, burned up, etc. , I don't know why ECT proponents expect us to interpret the word destroy there as somehow meaning "keep alive in physical and/or mental torture for eternity without ever actually destroying them".

SarahsKnight · 2025-11-13T21:59:58-0600

Light of the East said:
The same is true for those who do not like the idea of God really and actually having a love so expansive and great that He forgives and heals ALL sinners, not just those we like. (In other words, we don't like Hitler, so how dare God ultimately save him, but our drunken father who beats us, well, perhaps we hope that God's mercy will override his sins.)

And I, personally, pray that it is so, that He ultimately brings every last one of us to Him through His Son's sacrifice. Who am I to cry out for God's mercy but demand that He still "get those other filthy sinners!", whether with eternal torture or literal destruction/death?

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Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

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Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...

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