Young earth vs Old earth?

Derf · Friday at 2:47 PM

o_mlly said:
As God is outside time, creation can only exist if God continues to support/sustain His act of creating.

Can you explain why this must be? I don't see how the one follows from the other?

Pepperdoodle · Friday at 3:36 PM

impressedquote194 said:
Which one is biblical? explain why.

If the book of Genesis is interpreted literally, it seems to indicate that the earth and the universe are around 6,000 years old.

The options to solve the apparent conflict are as follows: the Bible is wrong, the Bible is being interpreted incorrectly, or the scientific data is being interpreted incorrectly or scientific data is wrong.

Young earth creationists interpret Genesis 1–2 as a literal, historical account of how God created the universe. Young earth creationists question why, if the rest of Genesis is historical, should the first two chapters be interpreted differently?

Young earth creationists contend that the scientific data supporting a billions-of-years-old universe is being interpreted incorrectly. They view old-earth arguments developed by naturalistic scientists as primarily being a defense for Darwinian evolution. They contend that the dating methods are flawed, at best, and are implemented by scientists with bias, presuppositions, and agendas. A great number of old earth creationists reject Darwinian evolution btw.

Genesis chapters 1 and 2 are meant to be read literally, and young earth creationism is what a literal reading of those chapters presents. The Bible indicates that the earth is relatively young.

Which one do you think is Biblical?

Job 33:6 · Friday at 4:06 PM

Derf said:
Can you explain why this must be? I don't see how the one follows from the other?

The thing is, God creates things all the time in the Bible. But we never interpret those passages as meaning that physical objects appear out of thin air. Traditionally, the church has only assumed that to be the case in the first verse of the Bible. But in actuality, for centuries, Jews of antiquity and people of the ancient near east, have understood creation to involve pre existing material.

So just as God created Jacob, God could create the heavens and the earth. Not to say that Jacob appeared out of thin air, however. And so it is with Genesis.

You know what else God also created in Genesis? Adam and Eve. And they were made out of dust and a rib bone.

But people assume, for whatever reason, that the first verse of the Bible must be different. But without any textual support. It's simply a philosophical assumption.

CoreyD · Friday at 4:44 PM

Derf said:
In relation to the earth is a possible way to interpret the passage, I agree.

Derf said:
But since the Earth is something that is named (Meaning that God said that something would be called "earth" after it was formed) and it came after the light was called "Day". In other words, the thing that is named (a name is given to it to identify it) is only given the name after it is formed. That doesn't mean the word isn't used earlier. For instance, "heavens" and "earth" are both terms that are used earlier, in vs 1, but later the name is applied to something that was just made. Which makes me think that when vs 1 talks about God making the the heavens and the earth in vs 1, it is the introduction to the account that is about to be described in the following verses. Something like this:
I am making a lamp. (The lamp doesn't exist yet)
First I'll buy some parts (The lamp doesn't exist as a lamp, but all the parts are there, formless and void)
and lay out my tools. (The lamp still doesn't exist)
I'll arrange all the parts to where they will connect to each other. (The lamp still doesn't exist as a lamp.)
I'll put all the pieces together and test them. (Now the lamp exists.)

I think it is similar to the Genesis account:
[Gen 1:1 KJV] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Statement like: I'm going to make a lamp.)
[Gen 1:2 KJV] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (The parts are there, but the earth doesn't exist yet.)
[Gen 1:3 KJV] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[Gen 1:4 KJV] And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (At this point Day and Night begin to exist)
[Gen 1:5 KJV] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. (Then He names the things that He made) And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Laying out of tools--you might need some light.)
[Gen 1:6 KJV] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[Gen 1:7 KJV] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. (At this point is when "Heaven" begins to exist)
[Gen 1:8 KJV] And God called the firmament Heaven. (Then God names the thing that He made, despite already referring to it in Vs 1) And the evening and the morning were the second day.
[Gen 1:9 KJV] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. (The "Earth" begins to exist, as well as the "Seas".)
[Gen 1:10 KJV] And God called the dry [land] Earth; (He names the thing that He made) and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: (He names the other thing that He made.) and God saw that [it was] good.

Do you look at Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 5:2 in the same way... or Genesis 2:22 and Genesis 2:23?
There are also places in the Bible which are mentioned by name, before being given a name.
This is because what we are reading is a narration - a historical record being penned by someone with all of that information.

The writer is not going to write, "In the beginning God created nothingness (I'll get to why I used this), and rock."
The writer will use the term he knows he is referring to. He will write earth, because he knows what it is he is talking about.
In the same way, the writer isn't going to write.... "he Lord God fashioned something from the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man."

It's a narration.
The thing God fashioned from the rib was named woman after, but the narrator uses the term, before the name is given.
The solid structure God created was named earth after, but the narrator uses the term, before the name is given.
We do the same today when writing stories.

Derf said:
Yes, I think we are in agreement here, that it was "light" that was referred to in the early verses, and a light source in the latter ones.

I hope we do agree it was the light on the earth.

Derf said:
I don't think there is a scriptural problem, nor scientific facts, but if you want to suggest some that we should discuss, I'm open to that.

I'll surely do that, but give me a moment.

Derf said:
No, as I pointed out above, Light was made first, before there was "Earth", and before there was "Heaven(s)". And "Heaven(s)" was made before "Earth". Keep in mind that I'm trying to read the passage for what it is trying to say, without putting my own ideas about the universe in there, at least just yet.

I appreciate you trying to do so.
Could you quote Genesis 1:1, so that we see what's actually written.
Do you see the word light there, or the heavens and earth?
So going by what is written in the passage, what came first?

Derf said:
I don't think the earth is the first thing that was made, as stated above.

Noted. Thanks.

Derf said:
The skies above and the dirt beneath.

Derf said:
The skies above and the thing (space) that God placed the stars in.

That's an interesting answer.
I thought you might see what is mentioned at Deuteronomy 4:19.

So, am I to understand that you believe empty space is the heavens referred to in the creation account of Genesis?
What is space, and how did that blackness impress David? Psalm 8:3

When you read the phrase such as mentioned at Isaiah 57:16 and Jeremiah 32:19, do you just see empty space and mud?
What would you say Psalm 102:25, 26 is referring to?

Derf said:
Does it? If the "Heaven(s)" were in existence already, and then God made a firmament that He called "Heaven(s)", that's confusing. If God made the Earth, and then He made something else that He called "Earth", that's confusing.

Not if one understands narration, and how writers utilizes it.
There's something else that's important to understand when reading something one has not written. Context.
A word or expression used in one place, can convey something else other than what's written in another place, though the word or expression is the same.
For example, heaven, as used in Genesis 1:8 (God called the [i]expanse “heaven.”) is not the same as heavens at Genesis 1:1, 9, 14, 15, 17, 20.

This is why understanding the Bible requires more than just reading, but requires studying what one reads.
A person, for example, would just finish reading Genesis 1:8, and go on to read subsequent verses, and it would not dawn on them that if the expanse is called heaven, then it's a heaven, of the heavens.
In other words, the expanse, is the atmospheric heaven (or sky - where birds, planes, and stratospheric aircrafts fly), within the heavens that go all the way into space.... as far as that goes.

Fly to the Edge of Space
Edge of Space Jet Flight
Stratoplanes: The aircraft that will fly at the edge of space
Robotic spaceplane flies to edge of space

Heavens used in the context of Deuteronomy 10:14 also differ.
We want to study what we read, otherwise confusion, will be our dilemma.
So, yes, the heavens existed before heaven, and earth already existed before it reared up out of the water.

Derf said:
Nice picture.

AI does a fairly good job on scenes.

Job 33:6 · Friday at 9:37 PM

Derf said:
In relation to the earth is a possible way to interpret the passage, I agree. But since the Earth is something that is named (Meaning that God said that something would be called "earth" after it was formed) and it came after the light was called "Day". In other words, the thing that is named (a name is given to it to identify it) is only given the name after it is formed. That doesn't mean the word isn't used earlier. For instance, "heavens" and "earth" are both terms that are used earlier, in vs 1, but later the name is applied to something that was just made. Which makes me think that when vs 1 talks about God making the the heavens and the earth in vs 1, it is the introduction to the account that is about to be described in the following verses. Something like this:
I am making a lamp. (The lamp doesn't exist yet)
First I'll buy some parts (The lamp doesn't exist as a lamp, but all the parts are there, formless and void)
and lay out my tools. (The lamp still doesn't exist)
I'll arrange all the parts to where they will connect to each other. (The lamp still doesn't exist as a lamp.)
I'll put all the pieces together and test them. (Now the lamp exists.)

I think it is similar to the Genesis account:
[Gen 1:1 KJV] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Statement like: I'm going to make a lamp.)
[Gen 1:2 KJV] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (The parts are there, but the earth doesn't exist yet.)
[Gen 1:3 KJV] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[Gen 1:4 KJV] And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (At this point Day and Night begin to exist)
[Gen 1:5 KJV] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. (Then He names the things that He made) And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Laying out of tools--you might need some light.)
[Gen 1:6 KJV] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[Gen 1:7 KJV] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. (At this point is when "Heaven" begins to exist)
[Gen 1:8 KJV] And God called the firmament Heaven. (Then God names the thing that He made, despite already referring to it in Vs 1) And the evening and the morning were the second day.
[Gen 1:9 KJV] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. (The "Earth" begins to exist, as well as the "Seas".)
[Gen 1:10 KJV] And God called the dry [land] Earth; (He names the thing that He made) and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: (He names the other thing that He made.) and God saw that [it was] good.

Yes, I think we are in agreement here, that it was "light" that was referred to in the early verses, and a light source in the latter ones.

I don't think there is a scriptural problem, nor scientific facts, but if you want to suggest some that we should discuss, I'm open to that.

No, as I pointed out above, Light was made first, before there was "Earth", and before there was "Heaven(s)". And "Heaven(s)" was made before "Earth". Keep in mind that I'm trying to read the passage for what it is trying to say, without putting my own ideas about the universe in there, at least just yet.

I don't think the earth is the first thing that was made, as stated above.

The skies above and the dirt beneath.

The skies above and the thing (space) that God placed the stars in.

Does it? If the "Heaven(s)" were in existence already, and then God made a firmament that He called "Heaven(s)", that's confusing. If God made the Earth, and then He made something else that He called "Earth", that's confusing.

Nice picture.

The key here is to understand that verse 1:1 is not an event, but rather it is an introduction.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

That is the simple solution to how light is the first thing created, and why the heavens and the earth are created on days 1-3. It's why it appears as though things are created twice. But in reality, verse 1:1 isn't an event. It's just an introduction.

Another simple way to understand it is to simply put verse 2 in parentheses.

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth (and the earth was formless and empty and darkness was upon the face of the waters), God said let there be light.

Derf · Friday at 10:20 PM

CoreyD said:
Do you look at Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 5:2 in the same way... or Genesis 2:22 and Genesis 2:23?

Yes.

CoreyD said:
There are also places in the Bible which are mentioned by name, before being given a name.
This is because what we are reading is a narration - a historical record being penned by someone with all of that information.

I don't think any of that contradicts my assertion.

CoreyD said:
The writer is not going to write, "In the beginning God created nothingness (I'll get to why I used this), and rock."
The writer will use the term he knows he is referring to. He will write earth, because he knows what it is he is talking about.
In the same way, the writer isn't going to write.... "he Lord God fashioned something from the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man."

It's a narration.
The thing God fashioned from the rib was named woman after, but the narrator uses the term, before the name is given.
The solid structure God created was named earth after, but the narrator uses the term, before the name is given.

Yes, but the narrator is being consistent, usually (I'll give a counter example in a moment).
For instance, When Adam called his new helper "Woman", it wasn't talking about a different helper than that which was identified as "Woman" prior. Both are the same person. Same thing about Adam/Mankind. There wasn't a different species in Gen 1:27 as here:
[Gen 5:2 KJV] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So it was with Heaven(s) and Earth. The narrator, as you say, already knew the subject, and knew the names, but he noted where the names came from (God) after He created each. So what you've written here confirms what I was saying.

CoreyD said:
We do the same today when writing stories.

I hope we do agree it was the light on the earth.

Yes, but not necessarily only on earth, right? And if the source was only from a point away from earth (the sun), it would already have light separated from darkness, by the earth, unless the earth wasn't already formed and opaque (not void).

CoreyD said:
I'll surely do that, but give me a moment.

I appreciate you trying to do so.
Could you quote Genesis 1:1, so that we see what's actually written.

Sure, if that helps:
[Gen 1:1 KJV] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

CoreyD said:
Do you see the word light there, or the heavens and earth?
So going by what is written in the passage, what came first?

But we don't read scripture as if a single passage is alone. You talk about this later when you mention "context"

CoreyD said:
Noted. Thanks.

That's an interesting answer.
I thought you might see what is mentioned at Deuteronomy 4:19.

It mentions both the space and the things that space contains.

CoreyD said:
So, am I to understand that you believe empty space is the heavens referred to in the creation account of Genesis?
What is space, and how did that blackness impress David? Psalm 8:3

I don't believe I said "empty space". Neither did David. But David didn't say "stars and planets and galaxies", he said "Heavens" and "Firmament". If I give you a basket of fruit, when you write me a thank you, you might say, "Thanks for the basket", and I will understand you also mean the fruit that was in it. That's context.

CoreyD said:
When you read the phrase such as mentioned at Isaiah 57:16 and Jeremiah 32:19, do you just see empty space and mud?

Eh? No. Remember that I didn't say "empty" on purpose.

CoreyD said:
What would you say Psalm 102:25, 26 is referring to?

The thing that holds the earth above the water and sky and space and what they contain.

CoreyD said:
Not if one understands narration, and how writers utilizes it.
There's something else that's important to understand when reading something one has not written. Context.
A word or expression used in one place, can convey something else other than what's written in another place, though the word or expression is the same.

Yes, We get an example of that with the word "Day". It is used in the first two chapters of Genesis for daylight, for a single rotation of the earth (evening and morning) and for a six day period. Perhaps, in Ch 3, it even means a 1000 year period.

And that could be confusing to the reader. But the first verse doesn't say, "In the beginning God made the Day and the Night." It wasn't the focus of the passage. The Heavens and Earth were. The creation story (first version) is bracketed by these verses:
[Gen 1:1 KJV] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[Gen 2:1 KJV] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And backed up by Exodus 20:11.

CoreyD said:
For example, heaven, as used in Genesis 1:8 (God called the [i]expanse “heaven.”) is not the same as heavens at Genesis 1:1, 9, 14, 15, 17, 20.

It's not? The same word is used, except where a determiner is added (as in "the heavens" vs "heavens"). This is why I was adding the "(s)" at the end of heaven, because it is translated differently, even though the word is always plural in Hebrew.

CoreyD said:
This is why understanding the Bible requires more than just reading, but requires studying what one reads.

Agreed.

CoreyD said:
A person, for example, would just finish reading Genesis 1:8, and go on to read subsequent verses, and it would not dawn on them that if the expanse is called heaven, then it's a heaven, of the heavens.

People think a lot of different things about it when they read it.

CoreyD said:
In other words, the expanse, is the atmospheric heaven (or sky - where birds, planes, and stratospheric aircrafts fly), within the heavens that go all the way into space.... as far as that goes.

Right. Which is exactly what the word conveys in Vs 1

CoreyD said:
Fly to the Edge of Space
Edge of Space Jet Flight
Stratoplanes: The aircraft that will fly at the edge of space
Robotic spaceplane flies to edge of space

Heavens used in the context of Deuteronomy 10:14 also differ.
We want to study what we read, otherwise confusion, will be our dilemma.
So, yes, the heavens existed before heaven, and earth already existed before it reared up out of the water.

Did it? Remember that the firmament where God put the stars started when the waters (on earth, as you would say) were separated. THEN God put stars and Sun and Moon in that firmament called Heaven(s). Later He put birds in it. That's why we don't want to lose the "s". Paul talks about being caught up to the "third heaven", which would no doubt be higher than the sky (heaven 1) and the stars (heaven 2).

CoreyD said:
AI does a fairly good job on scenes.

o_mlly · 2025-11-08T06:53:13-0600

Derf said:
Can you explain why this must be? I don't see how the one follows from the other?

Wisdom 11:24-25.

o_mlly · 2025-11-08T07:04:45-0600

Job 33:6 said:
I would say, much like God creates Israel, or God creates a blacksmith, or God creates a clean heart in David, things can materially exist before God actively creates them.

? Materially exists w/o being created? I do not think so.

Because God's loves His creation, He works to transform that which although created perfect has been corrupted. The economy of salvation or Divine Economy refers to God's activity in creating and governing the world, particularly with regard to his plan for the salvation of the world.

Job 33:6 · 2025-11-08T07:26:59-0600

o_mlly said:
? Materially exists w/o being created? I do not think so.

Because God's loves His creation, He works to transform that which although created perfect has been corrupted. The economy of salvation or Divine Economy refers to God's activity in creating and governing the world, particularly with regard to his plan for the salvation of the world.

Not without being created. God did create ex nihilo. But that doesn't mean that Genesis must tell that specific story.

Jacob was created materially, but that never stopped God from creating Jacob again later in the Bible. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. God can create things as many times as he wants, materially, and non materially. Ex nihilo and ex materia.

But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. Isaiah 43:1

See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc. Isaiah 54:16

God created a blacksmith. Is this in contradiction with God creating him materially, simply because the blacksmith was born of a mother?

No.

This confuses a lot of people. But the simple solution is to understand that God can create things in many ways and is not limited to creating things only 1 time.

Just like I can create a chair by cutting down some trees. And then I can take that chair and can turn it into a bench etc.

And this doesn't mean that God didn't originally create ex nihilo. It's just a matter of which creation the story is talking about.

So if God says that He created a blacksmith. It's illogical to counter by saying "well how did God create this man if he was already created?" Or "because God created the blacksmith, that means that the blacksmith materially existed without being created".

These counter arguments don't make sense because God can in fact create ex nihilo and then later on take that which already materially exists, and can create it again. And again, and again etc.

And someone could ask, well why doesn't Genesis talk about ex nihilo material creation?

And to that I would say, hundreds of times God creates things throughout the Bible using pre existing material. Is God not allowed to do that with the formless earth (by taking it and giving it form)?

d taylor · 2025-11-08T07:36:34-0600

impressedquote194 said:
Which one is biblical? explain why.

-

The earth is ageless as it existed before (Genesis 1:1) the restoration/creation of the earth in Genesis 1:3 thru 31. And Genesis 2 is not describing a second creation

o_mlly · 2025-11-08T08:10:26-0600

Job 33:6 said:
Not without being created. God did create ex nihilo. But that doesn't mean that Genesis must tell that specific story.

Jacob was created materially, but that never stopped God from creating Jacob again later in the Bible. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. God can create things as many times as he wants, materially, and non materially. Ex nihilo and ex materia.

But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. Isaiah 43:1

See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc. Isaiah 54:16

God created a blacksmith. Is this in contradiction with God creating him materially, simply because the blacksmith was born of a mother?

No.

This confuses a lot of people. But the simple solution is to understand that God can create things in many ways and is not limited to creating things only 1 time.

Just like I can create a chair by cutting down some trees. And then I can take that chair and can turn it into a bench etc.

And this doesn't mean that God didn't originally create ex nihilo. It's just a matter of which creation the story is talking about.

So if God says that He created a blacksmith. It's illogical to counter by saying "well how did God create this man if he was already created?" Or "because God created the blacksmith, that means that the blacksmith materially existed without being created".

These counter arguments don't make sense because God can in fact create ex nihilo and then later on take that which already materially exists, and can create it again. And again, and again etc.

And someone could ask, well why doesn't Genesis talk about ex nihilo material creation?

And to that I would say, hundreds of times God creates things throughout the Bible using pre existing material. Is God not allowed to do that with the formless earth (by taking it and giving it form)?

I think you might be confusing "created" with "transforming". The Word of God transforms people’s lives: Revelation 21:5: “Behold, I am making all things new”.

Job 33:6 · 2025-11-08T08:12:16-0600

o_mlly said:
I think you might be confusing "created" with "transforming". The Word of God transforms people’s lives: Revelation 21:5: “Behold, I am making all things new”.

Ah no I'm not confusing anything. Genesis 1 tells us that God created man. But we know that man was made of dust. When God created the blacksmith, or Jacob, The Bible doesn't say that God transformed them, it explicitly states that God created them as I cited in passages above.

But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. Isaiah 43:1

See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc. Isaiah 54:16

God doesn't merely transform Jacob or Israel or the blacksmith etc. God explicitly creates them.

In fact, it's the same Hebrew word as used in Genesis 1. "Bara".

And to create does not explicitly mean "ex nihilo".

I created a sandwich. But that doesn't mean that I therefore made a sandwich appear out of thin air. I can create a recipe. I can create a football team. I can create a work of art. I can create a piece of furniture etc.

And God can create things this way too.

This is a simple and commonly overlooked misconception about Genesis that has plagued the church for a long time.

Job 33:6 · 2025-11-08T08:38:00-0600

Job 33:6 said:
Ah no I'm not confusing anything. Genesis 1 tells us that God created man. But we know that man was made of dust. When God created the blacksmith, or Jacob, The Bible doesn't say that God transformed them, it explicitly states that God created them as I cited in passages above.

But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. Isaiah 43:1

See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc. Isaiah 54:16

God doesn't merely transform Jacob or Israel or the blacksmith etc. God explicitly creates them.

In fact, it's the same Hebrew word as used in Genesis 1. "Bara".

And to create does not explicitly mean "ex nihilo".

I created a sandwich. But that doesn't mean that I therefore made a sandwich appear out of thin air. I can create a recipe. I can create a football team. I can create a work of art. I can create a piece of furniture etc.

And God can create things this way too.

This is a simple and commonly overlooked misconception about Genesis that has plagued the church for a long time.

@o_mlly and I'll add to this. Once you see this, it's actually really simple. The creation of earth is on day 3 for example. Not in verse 1:1. The heavens on days 1 and 2. Not in verse 1:1. The host of the realms, created in days 4-6.

And when you get to the end of the story:

Genesis 2:1 NRSV
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, (days 1,2, and 3) and all their multitude (days 4,5, and 6).

And nothing actually happens in verse 1:1.

Genesis 1:1-2 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was [already] a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.

Or you can read verse 2 as parenthetical.
Genesis 1:1 NRSV
In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,

(And the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.)

God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

When I began to ride my bike, (and the bike had airless tires and it was rusted), I said, let there be new tires.

The bike is already there. And I am taking it, and creating it into something new. Not merely transforming. But creating it.

In the beginning when I made a pizza, the pizza was formless and empty, and then I said let there be a pizza roller and some pepperoni.

And over 6 hours I created a pizza and at the end of my creation, the pizza was no longer formless, and it was no longer empty, it was nicely shaped and it had pepperoni on it. It was full.

And then I sat down on my couch, or better yet, I rested on the 7th hour on my throne, and I ate my pizza and it was very good.

o_mlly · 2025-11-08T08:40:50-0600

Job 33:6 said:
Ah no I'm not confusing anything. Genesis 1 tells us that God created man. But we know that man was made of dust. When God created the blacksmith, or Jacob, The Bible doesn't say that God transformed them, it explicitly states that God created them as I cited in passages above.

But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. Isaiah 43:1

See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc. Isaiah 54:16

God doesn't merely transform Jacob or Israel or the blacksmith etc. God explicitly creates them.

In fact, it's the same Hebrew word as used in Genesis 1. "Bara".

And to create does not explicitly mean "ex nihilo".

I created a sandwich. But that doesn't mean that I therefore made a sandwich appear out of thin air. I can create a recipe. I can create a football team. I can create a work of art. I can create a piece of furniture etc.

And God can create things this way too.

This is a simple and commonly overlooked misconception about Genesis that has plagued the church for a long time.

We believe that God creates each soul individually at conception. After His animating act, the bodies begin their material transformation from egg and sperm and develop into fully formed bodies. Does the acorn create the oak tree? No. It is the seed with the potency to transform under the correct condition to become an oak tree.

Job 33:6 · 2025-11-08T08:46:02-0600

o_mlly said:
We believe that God creates each soul individually at conception. After His animating act, the bodies begin their material transformation from egg and sperm and develop into fully formed bodies. Does the acorn create the oak tree? No. It is the seed with the potency to transform under the correct condition to become an oak tree.

Again. God is not strictly limited to ex nihilo creation. If God wants to create something using pre existing material. He can. And in fact, he does. God created Israel. But that has nothing to do with a soul.

it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc; Isaiah 54:16.

o_mlly · 2025-11-08T08:47:45-0600

Job 33:6 said:
... formless void ... And over 6 hours I created a pizza and at the end of my creation.

Do you see the contradiction? You did not create a pizza from a "formless void". Rather than from a "formless void", you transformed flour, water, etc. into a pizza.

Job 33:6 · 2025-11-08T08:50:14-0600

o_mlly said:
We believe that God creates each soul individually at conception. After His animating act, the bodies begin their material transformation from egg and sperm and develop into fully formed bodies. Does the acorn create the oak tree? No. It is the seed with the potency to transform under the correct condition to become an oak tree.

Here is another example:
I am the LORD, your Holy One, Creator of Israel, and your King. Isaiah 43:15

Again, God can create things, in non-material ways. It's a simple fact of scripture.

Job 33:6 · 2025-11-08T08:50:50-0600

o_mlly said:
Do you see the contradiction? You did not create a pizza from a "formless void". Rather than from a "formless void", you transformed flour, water, etc. into a pizza.

It's not a contradiction. Void does not mean empty space. It simply means disorder and emptiness. This is about the definition of tohu. And once you see tohu for what it is, it will make sense.

Job 33:6 · 2025-11-08T08:57:11-0600

o_mlly said:
Do you see the contradiction? You did not create a pizza from a "formless void". Rather than from a "formless void", you transformed flour, water, etc. into a pizza.

Bara in Hebrew, or to create, means to make, or to do. It is an action. And when God creates something, He is taking it and doing something with it. Like if I said, I am going to make a pizza. And I take that pizza in its formless state, and I give it form. That is creation.

In English this sounds weird to 21st century Christians. But in the old testament, objects that are tohu wa bohu, are still objects. They can both be the object of the creation, and the result of the creation.

And that's why God can take the formless Earth, it's not that the Earth wasn't there, it was there and it was formless, and God can create it in 6 days, not in verse 1:1 but in 6 days.

See:
Genesis 1:9-10 NRSV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Here, God creates the Earth, he called the dry land Earth. He did that by taking something that was disorderly, and he gathers the waters and he takes it and gives it form.

The Earth is formless, on day three. He creates it, and it is no longer without form.

That is creation. Creation is not in verse 1:1.

o_mlly · 2025-11-08T09:02:04-0600

Job 33:6 said:
God created Israel ...

Not exactly. We agree that God created Jacob, and that after successfully wrestling with God's messenger, Jacob asked for a blessing before releasing the angel. The angel renamed Jacob to Israel, ie., one who wrestles with God. The renaming tradition occurs often in the Bible when a mortal engages with the eternal or His angel showing the individual's transformation after encountering the other-worldly.

Young earth vs Old earth?

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“Behold, I make all things new.”

“Behold, I make all things new.”

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“Behold, I make all things new.”

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“Behold, I make all things new.”

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“Behold, I make all things new.”

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“Behold, I make all things new.”

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