• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

A challenge to a faith we've all come to know

A Devil's Advocate

Active Member
Nov 2, 2023
71
23
56
Alberta
✟22,920.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In all my years of being a Christian, something has become glaringly clear.
There are two kinds of Christianity. The first is the religious version—the one most people have come to know. The second is the Christianity revealed in the Bible itself, which, sadly, few ever come to recognize.

We’ve all been taught that our behavior—our sin—is what separates us from God. That sin directly caused death, and that getting our sins forgiven equals salvation. But that’s not what Scripture actually teaches.

Yes, if you only read the Bible at surface level, that’s exactly what it seems to say. But Scripture can’t just be read at surface level. It wasn’t written recently, nor was it written to us. It was written to a people who lived in a completely different culture and time. Their understanding of words, life, and God was shaped by their world. Ours is shaped by ours. To read Scripture as though its meaning automatically transfers across time and culture is not only naive—it’s a mistake.
Let’s start with the belief that sin caused death. This is a perfect example of why surface-level reading will only lead to confusion.

Sin didn’t directly cause death. In fact, sin has no power at all to cause any kind of death. Physical death has always been a natural part of being human. If it were caused by sin, then what God says in Genesis 3 wouldn’t make sense. There, God says the tree of life can give everlasting life even to sinful people. That would be impossible if sin eventually leads to death. The only way that statement makes sense is if physical death was already a natural part of human life.

Sin doesn’t cause soul death either—that would be no different than physical death. The soul is what gives life to the body. So that leaves spiritual death.

But, if spiritual death were automatically caused by sin—if sin had built-in power to destroy spiritual life—then salvation would be impossible. No amount of grace or forgiveness could stop such an automatic effect. The moment someone received new spiritual life, their very next sin would simply kill that life again.

So while spiritual death entered the world through sin, it wasn’t automatically caused by sin. There’s more going on than that.

Scripture teaches that it is our condition that separates us from God, not our behavior. This is something so obvious that we've somehow missed it. If I was to ask you, "Why is it that we sin?" What would your answer be? Whatever your answer is, it should be glaringly obvious that if your answer is what causes us to sin, then sin itself is the symptom, not the cause.​

We are all born spiritually dead. That’s our condition. We inherited it—passed down from generation to generation—all the way back to Adam and Eve, who received it from God as a consequence of disobedience. When they ate from the tree, God separated Himself from them. That separation was spiritual death.

From that point on, humanity bore a new image. Genesis 5:3 says Adam had a son “in his own likeness, after his image.” Humanity was created in God’s image, but now we are born in Adam’s. Spiritually dead plus spiritually dead will always equal spiritually dead. That’s why Romans 5:12 says we all share in Adam’s condition.

Our behavior—our sin—is simply the natural result of being separated from God. It’s the symptom of our spiritual condition.

Even though we’re born spiritually dead, we aren’t guilty of sin until we choose to sin. A newborn infant, for example, hasn’t wilfully sinned. If that child dies, it has the grace of God upon which it will be saved. But given enough time, however, that child will eventually sin.

Now, if spiritual death is our condition and our sin is merely a symptom of that condition, then logically, it is not our sin that separates us from God, but our condition. And if our sin isn't what separates us from God, then getting our sins forgiven isn't going to save us. Our salvation, and the forgiveness of sin, are two uniquely separate events.
Forgiveness was accomplished more than 2,000 years ago and applied to all humanity. Every person born since the cross has entered the world already forgiven. There isn’t a soul alive today who isn’t already forgiven.

Imagine you’ve committed a crime deserving life in prison. A friend—completely innocent—offers to take your punishment in your place. The judge agrees. The moment your friend takes your penalty, you’re considered innocent and free to go. Do you need to ask for a pardon? Of course not. The price was paid, and justice was satisfied.

That’s exactly what happened at the cross. The moment Christ paid the penalty, the world was forgiven. And it’s because we’re forgiven that salvation is even possible.

This is why God tore the temple curtain—to show that anyone can now enter His presence for salvation. If forgiveness only happened at the moment of salvation, then no one could approach God to receive it, because they’d still be guilty. But since forgiveness was already given, salvation became possible for all.
In modern Christianity, the focus is too often on behavior. But every major religion in the world is about behavior—about doing better, trying harder, sinning less. It’s easy to judge others when we measure faith by conduct.

It’s like judging someone with Alzheimer’s for forgetting things—then scolding them to “try harder” to remember. The problem isn’t their behavior. It’s their condition.

We’re all born in the same condition: spiritually dead. Do you have the right to judge another based on that? Of course not. You were no different. The true question is, can you love someone regardless of their symptoms?

That’s what true Christianity is about.




 
Last edited:

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,165
6,516
Utah
✟873,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
We are born into a sinful world .... we will all indeed sin.

Humans are born with a sinful nature that separates them from God. This isn't about being unable to live a moral life through willpower, but rather an inability to have a relationship with God without divine intervention.

Judgement is completely up to Jesus ... He is the only one that knows "the secret things" ... we don't know the heart/mind only Jesus does.

It is recommended to continue to share the gospel respectfully and to pray for individuals who are not open, but to recognize when to move on if the rejection is clear. According to scripture, there are times when it is appropriate to disengage from a conversation that is being rejected, but to still show love through prayer and actions. This approach balances persistence with discernment, following biblical examples of both.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,422
4,122
✟404,098.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
We are born into a sinful world .... we will all indeed sin.

Humans are born with a sinful nature that separates them from God. This isn't about being unable to live a moral life through willpower, but rather an inability to have a relationship with God without divine intervention.

Judgement is completely up to Jesus ... He is the only one that knows "the secret things" ... we don't know the heart/mind only Jesus does.

It is recommended to continue to share the gospel respectfully and to pray for individuals who are not open, but to recognize when to move on if the rejection is clear. According to scripture, there are times when it is appropriate to disengage from a conversation that is being rejected, but to still show love through prayer and actions. This approach balances persistence with discernment, following biblical examples of both.
Since the beginning the church taught that communion with God, the opposite of Adam’s separation and alienation from Him, is the answer, to all man’s problems ultimately. That’s what we were made for, and that’s what we’re lost without, living in a state of chaos, injustice, disorder, outside of God’s wisdom and will, a state of sin, a state of death, IOW.

Without that vital connection and subjugation to God, sin is inevitable. So, the new covenant is not about attempting to be obedient first of all, as the old covenant was, but about becoming "My people" (Jer 31:32) first of all, being reconciled to God, the reason Jesus came. Then the true state of justice/righteousness is restored as we now walk in and by the Spirit, not by the Letter. The lesson man is here to learn: “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). The first step into that renewed relationship is faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
11,165
6,516
Utah
✟873,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Since the beginning the church taught that communion with God, the opposite of Adam’s separation and alienation from Him, is the answer, to all man’s problems ultimately. That’s what we were made for, and that’s what we’re lost without, living in a state of chaos, injustice, disorder, outside of God’s wisdom and will, a state of sin, a state of death, IOW.

Without that vital connection and subjugation to God, sin is inevitable. So, the new covenant is not about attempting to be obedient first of all, as the old covenant was, but about becoming "My people" (Jer 31:32) first of all, being reconciled to God, the reason Jesus came. Then the true state of justice/righteousness is restored as we now walk in and by the Spirit, not by the Letter. The lesson man is here to learn: “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). The first step into that renewed relationship is faith.
Walking by the Spirit means not being under the condemnation of the law, but fulfilling its requirements through grace, as righteousness is imputed through faith of Jesus Christ.



Sin in the bible is transgression of the law.

It is the law that reveals to us we are sinful. Conviction of the Holy Spirit. This will lead one to Christ ... once a person accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior they undergo changes .... this changing is a earthly lifetime process .... sanctification ... we will stumble here and there ,,, the work of the Holy Spirit will help us overcome sin

the Holy Spirit helps overcome sin by convicting believers of sin, guiding them with wisdom, and transforming their desires to align with God's will. This work is not about self-effort but about allowing the Spirit's power to transform the inner person, resulting in a growing desire for righteousness over sinful cravings. Overcoming sin involves actively yielding to the Spirit's influence rather than just fighting against temptation.

The law has a dual purpose ...
To reveal sin and lead one to Christ:

Jesus initiates faith, and through His perfect life, death, and resurrection, he provides the foundation and completes the salvation that makes our faith possible and secure.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,422
4,122
✟404,098.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Walking by the Spirit means not being under the condemnation of the law, but fulfilling its requirements through grace, as righteousness is imputed through faith of Jesus Christ.
Ok? And what does that mean? It's certainly not a license or freedom to sin, which John defines as lawlessness, right? Again, this is all about becoming Gods people, whereupon He writes His law on our hearts, (by the Spirit, under grace) rather than us attemtping to obey it by the Letter (under the law), apart from Him as if we actually have any righteousness apart from Him. So, again, communion with or nearness to God is the basis of justice and righteousness for man, which is why the first commandments are what they are-and most importantly why the gretest commandment is what it is. IOW, when we love God we obey without regard to any law. Jesus came to reconcile man with God, to reestablish the vital relationship that we were created for, and that Adam broke.

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” St Basil of Caesarea
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

A Devil's Advocate

Active Member
Nov 2, 2023
71
23
56
Alberta
✟22,920.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Humans are born with a sinful nature that separates them from God. This isn't about being unable to live a moral life through willpower, but rather an inability to have a relationship with God without divine intervention.
Our sinful nature does not separate us from God. We are already separated as a result of God's punishment for Adam's disobedience. It is this very separation that leads to a sinful nature. Not the other way around, as most have come to mistakenly believe. You cannot separate what is already separated.

Our sin is not the problem. Our condition of spiritual death (separation) is the problem. Death, which is a far worse condition than a sinful nature, was God's punishment for sin, "The wages of sin is death," which God paid out 'in the day' Adam sinned. If sin is the true problem, then Christ's death on the cross would have been sufficient for salvation. There would have been no reason for the resurrection. But the fact remains, we're dead and getting our sins forgiven doesn't change this. All forgiveness means is we can now come into the presence of God for salvation, and that salvation is eternally secure because all sin has been forgiven leaving no more punishment (spiritual death/separation) to be handed out by God.
 
Upvote 0

A Devil's Advocate

Active Member
Nov 2, 2023
71
23
56
Alberta
✟22,920.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
the Holy Spirit helps overcome sin by convicting believers of sin, guiding them with wisdom, and transforming their desires to align with God's will.
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit helps to guide us and transform our desires to align with God's, but it does not convict us of sin. It may be through the transforming our desires to align with God's that we start to feel guilty in regards to our sin, but that is not the Holy Spirit convicting us.

All sin was forgiven at the cross. All mankind has received this forgiveness whether they are a believer or not. God tearing the temple curtain was a visual display of this fact. No one guilty of sin was allowed beyond that curtain, not even the high priest. Only after he had been cleansed of his sins could he then enter through the curtain into the presence of God. Tearing that curtain from top to bottom was God's way of showing the world that everyone has been cleansed of their sins and can now freely come into the presence of God for salvation.

So in John 16:8-9 when Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit convicting the world of their sins, He isn't referring to their sins as in behavior. There is no more sin at this point to be convicted of. It has all been forgiven. Remember, the Holy Spirit doesn't come until after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension has occurred. The only thing left at this point to convict the world of is their unbelief, which we see in verse 9.
 
Upvote 0

Hawkins

Member
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2005
2,733
426
Canada
✟319,087.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If sin doesn't lead to death, you don't need Jesus in the first place! All mankind is dead under Law (sin is a trespass of Law), the only way out if through Jesus. To be more specific, Jesus changed the rule that humans are judged by Covenant instead of Law (humans are all dead under Law). Still the end result is that humans are saved through the narrow gate (vs. zero human saved under Law).

In terms of Covenant then, faith without work is dead. It means if you are not changed (second born) your faith may not be what the Covenant specifies, you are still dead under Law because you failed to actually subject yourself under the Covenant.
 
Upvote 0

NewLifeInChristJesus

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2011
1,655
483
Georgia
✟108,175.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
In all my years of being a Christian, something has become glaringly clear.
There are two kinds of Christianity. The first is the religious version—the one most people have come to know. The second is the Christianity revealed in the Bible itself, which, sadly, few ever come to recognize.

We’ve all been taught that our behavior—our sin—is what separates us from God. That sin directly caused death, and that getting our sins forgiven equals salvation. But that’s not what Scripture actually teaches.

Yes, if you only read the Bible at surface level, that’s exactly what it seems to say. But Scripture can’t just be read at surface level. It wasn’t written recently, nor was it written to us. It was written to a people who lived in a completely different culture and time. Their understanding of words, life, and God was shaped by their world. Ours is shaped by ours. To read Scripture as though its meaning automatically transfers across time and culture is not only naive—it’s a mistake.
Let’s start with the belief that sin caused death. This is a perfect example of why surface-level reading will only lead to confusion.

Sin didn’t directly cause death. In fact, sin has no power at all to cause any kind of death. Physical death has always been a natural part of being human. If it were caused by sin, then what God says in Genesis 3 wouldn’t make sense. There, God says the tree of life can give everlasting life even to sinful people. That would be impossible if sin eventually leads to death. The only way that statement makes sense is if physical death was already a natural part of human life.

Sin doesn’t cause soul death either—that would be no different than physical death. The soul is what gives life to the body. So that leaves spiritual death.

But, if spiritual death were automatically caused by sin—if sin had built-in power to destroy spiritual life—then salvation would be impossible. No amount of grace or forgiveness could stop such an automatic effect. The moment someone received new spiritual life, their very next sin would simply kill that life again.
This is not true at all. The new man created when a person is born from God does not sin and can not sin (1 Jn 3:9) because he is joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him ().
So while spiritual death entered the world through sin, it wasn’t automatically caused by sin. There’s more going on than that.

Scripture teaches that it is our condition that separates us from God, not our behavior. This is something so obvious that we've somehow missed it. If I was to ask you, "Why is it that we sin?" What would your answer be? Whatever your answer is, it should be glaringly obvious that if your answer is what causes us to sin, then sin itself is the symptom, not the cause.​

We are all born spiritually dead. That’s our condition. We inherited it—passed down from generation to generation—all the way back to Adam and Eve, who received it from God as a consequence of disobedience. When they ate from the tree, God separated Himself from them. That separation was spiritual death.
It is untennable to say that sin does not separate us from God.

But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you (Is 59:2)​

Do you have Scriptures to back up the idea that separation from God due to sin is not "automatic"?
From that point on, humanity bore a new image. Genesis 5:3 says Adam had a son “in his own likeness, after his image.” Humanity was created in God’s image, but now we are born in Adam’s. Spiritually dead plus spiritually dead will always equal spiritually dead. That’s why Romans 5:12 says we all share in Adam’s condition.

Our behavior—our sin—is simply the natural result of being separated from God. It’s the symptom of our spiritual condition.

Even though we’re born spiritually dead, we aren’t guilty of sin until we choose to sin. A newborn infant, for example, hasn’t wilfully sinned. If that child dies, it has the grace of God upon which it will be saved. But given enough time, however, that child will eventually sin.
The age of accountability doctrine has no Scriptural basis as far as I can tell.
Now, if spiritual death is our condition and our sin is merely a symptom of that condition, then logically, it is not our sin that separates us from God, but our condition. And if our sin isn't what separates us from God, then getting our sins forgiven isn't going to save us. Our salvation, and the forgiveness of sin, are two uniquely separate events.
Forgiveness was accomplished more than 2,000 years ago and applied to all humanity. Every person born since the cross has entered the world already forgiven. There isn’t a soul alive today who isn’t already forgiven.

Imagine you’ve committed a crime deserving life in prison. A friend—completely innocent—offers to take your punishment in your place. The judge agrees. The moment your friend takes your penalty, you’re considered innocent and free to go. Do you need to ask for a pardon? Of course not. The price was paid, and justice was satisfied.

That’s exactly what happened at the cross. The moment Christ paid the penalty, the world was forgiven. And it’s because we’re forgiven that salvation is even possible.
No, forgiveness was not appropriated to all mankind the moment Christ paid the penalty (Acts 26:18, Rom 4:5-8, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Col 2:13, 1 Jn 1:9).
This is why God tore the temple curtain—to show that anyone can now enter His presence for salvation. If forgiveness only happened at the moment of salvation, then no one could approach God to receive it, because they’d still be guilty. But since forgiveness was already given, salvation became possible for all.
Salvation has two elements - never perishing and eternal life (John 3:15-17).
In modern Christianity, the focus is too often on behavior. But every major religion in the world is about behavior—about doing better, trying harder, sinning less. It’s easy to judge others when we measure faith by conduct.

It’s like judging someone with Alzheimer’s for forgetting things—then scolding them to “try harder” to remember. The problem isn’t their behavior. It’s their condition.

We’re all born in the same condition: spiritually dead. Do you have the right to judge another based on that? Of course not. You were no different. The true question is, can you love someone regardless of their symptoms?

That’s what true Christianity is about.
 
Upvote 0

A Devil's Advocate

Active Member
Nov 2, 2023
71
23
56
Alberta
✟22,920.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This is not true at all. The new man created when a person is born from God does not sin and can not sin (1 Jn 3:9) because he is joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him ().
Clearly John is not saying that we who have been born again, who have become followers of Christ will never sin again. He is saying that it is no longer in our nature to want to continue to sin like someone who is unsaved would have no issue doing.
In Rom 7:14-20, Paul is pretty clear on the fact that he still struggles with sin.
It is untennable to say that sin does not separate us from God.

But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you (Is 59:2)
Do you have Scriptures to back up the idea that separation from God due to sin is not "automatic"?
Isaiah is not referring to the peoples condition of separation (spiritual death). In Is 59:2, the prophet Isaiah is giving a rebuke to the people for their national corruption, injustice, and hypocrisy. Also, they are under the old covenant. We are not and never were.

Respectfully, it is not necessary to throw simple logic and common sense out the window in order to interpret scripture. In fact, they should go hand in hand. As I explained in my post, if spiritual death, which is separation from God, was an automatic effect of sin, then salvation would be impossible. We do not stop sinning the moment we are saved as I just showed with Rom 7. We are told that the wages of sin is death. Wages are not an automatic effect. They are something that is paid out for a service/act that has been done. These wages were payed out by God when Adam and Eve disobeyed His commandment. This death that God paid out was spiritual death. Not physical and not soul death as I explained in my original post.
And if there is a disagreement that spiritual death was not the punishment that God paid out to Adam and Eve, then you need to explain to me how it is that Eve realized she had been deceived.
The age of accountability doctrine has no Scriptural basis as far as I can tell.
I was not making an argument for an age of accountability. I was simply stating that as a result of us coming into the world already separated from God, we will inevitably sin.

Also.... if it is our sin that separates us from God, then logically, we would not be separated from God until we sinned. If we are not separated from God until we sin, then we must be spiritually alive (in relationship with God). In which case, why is it then we sin in the first place? Where does this desire to disobey God stem from?

I had no desire to do the good of God or to follow his will, before I was saved. This only came about after I was saved. The reason why is until I was saved, I remained spiritually dead, separated from God, not giving a damn.
No, forgiveness was not appropriated to all mankind the moment Christ paid the penalty (Acts 26:18, Rom 4:5-8, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14, Col 2:13, 1 Jn 1:9).
Before Christ, no one guilty of sin could freely come into God’s presence, not because God hated people, but because His holiness demanded separation.
If forgiveness only occurs at the moment of salvation, then how do you go about receiving it? You certainly can't come to God for it. You're still guilty of sin. To say that it was Jesus' sacrifice on the cross that has made it possible is to simply deny the fact that Jesus is God. It is to reduce Jesus down to being only a means to God. Jesus Himself even tells us in Matt 12:31 that forgiveness would be appropriated to all mankind at the cross.

The key to this verse is understanding what blasphemy of the Spirit is. The simple answer is 'unbelief.' We see this explained in John 16:8-9. But there are two important things here we need to consider:
First, when Jesus says you do not believe in Me, He isn't meaning in the same sense that you would say you do not believe in aliens or Unicorns. He is meaning that you are choosing not to place your faith in Him.
And second, Every single person comes into the world as an unbeliever. Which means, we are all guilty of blasphemy of the Spirit.

Because we are all guilty of blasphemy of the Spirit, what Jesus says in Matt12:31 can only make sense if forgiveness is appropriated to all mankind at the cross. If not, and it only happens at salvation, then either no one is saved since their unbelief won't be forgiven, or Jesus was wrong and their unbelief was forgiven along with the rest of their sins.

All sin has been forgiven except for unbelief, the one thing you must repent of.
Salvation has two elements - never perishing and eternal life (John 3:15-17).

These are not two separate elements, they are saying the same thing.

Salvation is receiving new spiritual life. This new life will be eternal because the only thing that could take away spiritual life was God's punishment for sin. However, Jesus took all the punishment God had to give satisfying God's justice. Because there is now no more punishment left to give, there is now no longer any possibility of spiritual death.
This is why the forgiveness of sins had to take place before salvation could be offered. Not only did it allow us the freedom to come into God's presence in order to receive it, it assured us that our salvation would be eternal.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

A Devil's Advocate

Active Member
Nov 2, 2023
71
23
56
Alberta
✟22,920.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; ...


I didn't read any further beyond that point.
Wages are not an automatic effect. Neither are they a direct effect of a cause. They are something that is payed out for a service or act from whomever this service or act was done. Sin did not automatically or directly cause death. Death was the punishment for Adam and Eve's disobedience of God's command payed to them by God. This equated to God separating Himself from them resulting in spiritual death.

If death was an automatic or direct result of sin, salvation would remain impossible. Any sin you commit after getting saved would automatically or directly bring about spiritual death, again separating you from God. Forgiveness payed for the punishment that sin brings upon us from God. It did not change some automatic or direct cause of death.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,450
2,010
61
✟238,220.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Wages are not an automatic effect. Neither are they a direct effect of a cause. They are something that is payed out for a service or act from whomever this service or act was done. Sin did not automatically or directly cause death. Death was the punishment for Adam and Eve's disobedience of God's command payed to them by God. This equated to God separating Himself from them resulting in spiritual death.

If death was an automatic or direct result of sin, salvation would remain impossible. Any sin you commit after getting saved would automatically or directly bring about spiritual death, again separating you from God. Forgiveness payed for the punishment that sin brings upon us from God. It did not change some automatic or direct cause of death.

Naaa,...

"the wages of sin is death" seems pretty explanatory to me.
 
Upvote 0

A Devil's Advocate

Active Member
Nov 2, 2023
71
23
56
Alberta
✟22,920.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If sin doesn't lead to death, you don't need Jesus in the first place! All mankind is dead under Law (sin is a trespass of Law), the only way out if through Jesus. To be more specific, Jesus changed the rule that humans are judged by Covenant instead of Law (humans are all dead under Law). Still the end result is that humans are saved through the narrow gate (vs. zero human saved under Law).

In terms of Covenant then, faith without work is dead. It means if you are not changed (second born) your faith may not be what the Covenant specifies, you are still dead under Law because you failed to actually subject yourself under the Covenant.
Please pay attention to my wording before jumping to a false conclusion. I did not say that sin doesn't lead to death. I said that sin is not a direct cause of death.

In Rom 5:12 Paul tells us that sin entered the world through one man and death through sin... First off, sin was already in the world (the serpent deceiving Eve was a sinful act), so Paul isn't speaking of the world in a literal or physical sense. He is speaking within the context of man's relationship with God where, up until that point, there was no sin within their relationship. He then says, very specifically, that death entered through sin. He did not say it was caused by sin. The reason death entered through sin is because God, due to His nature, has to punish sin. That punishment was spiritual death caused by God separating Himself from Adam.
 
Upvote 0

Abraham1st

Well-Known Member
Oct 1, 2025
441
16
53
bolton
✟12,086.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I did not say that sin doesn't lead to death. I said that sin is not a direct cause of death.

In Rom 5:12 Paul tells us that sin entered the world through one man and death through sin... First off, sin was already in the world (the serpent deceiving Eve was a sinful act), so Paul isn't speaking of the world in a literal or physical sense. He is speaking within the context of man's relationship with God where, up until that point, there was no sin within their relationship. He then says, very specifically, that death entered through sin. He did not say it was caused by sin. The reason death entered through sin is because God, due to His nature, has to punish sin. That punishment was spiritual death caused by God separating Himself from Adam.
Lets put it in order.

This is a battle between subtilty and simplicity, the devil offers corruption, and Christ gives incorruptibility.

So to simplify matters as told here, if he comes and preaches another Jesus, whom the apostles of the Lord have not preached, another spirit which we have NOT RECEIVED, another gospel which we have NOT ACCEPTED, we bear with that one.

They DESIRE OCCASION, which is CUT OFF FROM THEM, that is what they GLORY IN, but they are FOUND to be, FALSE APOSTLES, DECEITFUL WORKERS, TRANSFORMING THEMSELVES into the apostles of Christ, satan HIMSELF is TRANSFORMED into an angel of light, his MINISTERS also be TRANSFORMED as the ministers of righteousness, THEIR END SHALL BE ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.



2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.




God did not reprimand the serpent until the woman had told to God what she had done, and she acknowledges that the serpent beguiled her.

God then sets judgement on the serpent, but only after the act was committed.

That is what happened in Genesis, it does not matter what translations may say, it is in that order, and apostle Paul cannot speak any different way, than the way it was done.

So by what was committed, sin entered into the world, that is Adams transgression, an act of disobedience that the law also enforces, by death on all who were disobedient against it., the same way. (death reigns by the law, by being put to death for offences committed, and by dying in their sins, as the sacrifices of the law were never able to fully take away the conscience of sins.)

The man who does not fall into Adams transgression again, ( all those who are in the law are transgressors.) is BLESSED, to ENDURE TEMPTATION, because this is being tried and they receive the CROWN OF LIFE, which the Lord has PROMISED TO THOSE THAT LOVE HIM.

No man can say when he is tempted, that God is tempting him, as God CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL, neither temps he ANY MAN, but EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and ENTICED. ( so the serpents beguiling of Eve was not his sin, but sin entered the world when Adam transgressed/then the devil is cursed, as is seen, that that is the moment and that it is the right moment.)

Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. ( NO SUCH THING AS SPIRITUL DEATH, that would be another Jesus, another gospel.)




Genesis 3:13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Genessis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.




Sin did not come to Jesus, when the tempter came to Him forty days in temptation, but Jesus was hungry and did not do as He may have done, to be as Adam to take off what was forbidden, and Jesus Christ in simplicity, against the corruption of the devil, kept to what was right and did not take bread from stones. ( the faith of Christ, He showed us against what we saw in Adam, and against the lie of the serpent, we do live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, and Adam died by not believing in that, as do all who are UNBELIEVERS).

Jesus did all He did to destroy that devil, even TAKING PART IN FLESH AND BLOOD, to DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH. ( THROUGH DEATH, IT DEMONSTRATED HE COULD NOT BE HELD IN IT, WHICH DELIVERS THEM WHO THROUGH FEAR OF DEATH WHERE ALL THEIR LFIETIME SUBJECT TO BONDAGE/SIN.)

He took on Him the seed of Abraham, in all things t was correct for Hm to be made like unto HIs brothers, to be a merciful and FAITHFUL High priest, in things pertaining to God, to make RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE.

So reconciling what Adam had failed to do in is temptation and through the beguiling of Eve by the devil, Jesus Christ our Lord suffered being tempted, then is able to SUCCOUR THEM THAT ARE TEMPTED.




Luke 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
 
Upvote 0

Abraham1st

Well-Known Member
Oct 1, 2025
441
16
53
bolton
✟12,086.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Clearly you are a force to be reckoned with in a debate.
I don't mind debating, but it is a sign of people not knowing the difference between the knowledge of good and the knowledge of evil.




Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Psalm 119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments.
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.
69 The proud have forged a lie against me: but I will keep thy precepts with my whole heart.
70 Their heart is as fat as grease; but I delight in thy law.
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

Proverbs 19:1 Better is the poor that walketh in his integrity, than he that is perverse in his lips, and is a fool.
2 Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth.
3 The foolishness of man perverteth his way: and his heart fretteth against the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 2:26 For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to him that is good before God. This also is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
 
Upvote 0