SNAP benefits ( gentally)

asquirrel said:

Oh look, another person putting words in my mouth and sockpuppeting points of view I do not have.

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Then what do you mean by the section I quoted in post #98?

If I put words into you mouth my apologies.

asquirrel said:

Louis Rossmann has a great bit about why Minimum Wage Jobs Need to Suck. Essentially, you need the bottom of whatever society is to be uncomfortable enough that nobody wants to stay there as a way to encourage people to do more than the bare minimum. While you attempt to assault my humanity, the reality is that I am trying to preserve theirs. I'm helping them keep a reason to move forward in life and resist the temptation to settle on that 'being enough'. But this is also the reason to, as I put in previous posts, know the people you are helping directly. There's a world of difference between someone broke because their leg is broken, who has worked hard their entire life, and someone broke because they just want to not try.

Sure, even that not-try person might be traumatized and need mental support to realize there's a point to effort. I've been there. But sometimes the only way to make them desperate enough to do some soul searching is when their life can't make them happy. You assault my humanity, you don't understand I'm protecting theirs.

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So they should be OK with being exploited in their work and expect to not survive on what they earn so as to help develop their character, and they should be grateful for the experience?

Thinking back to when I worked in retail, the people who held entry-level jobs that people looked down on did it for a variety of reasons. Parents working their kids school hours was popular. Finding a job opposite a partner’s 9-5 was, too. Working around care for adult dependents was too.

The overwhelming majority of people who worked these jobs as lifers had barriers that bootstrap-pulling doesn’t solve. Physical challenges, mental differences, extreme poverty or access issues to means to improve their prospects (like affordable college, relevant job coaching), or records of some sort.

An overwhelming majority of people who hold these “minimum wage jobs” for prolonged periods aren’t doing it because they want to. They do it because they have to.

So are we saying that because of those barriers, they hours they work for an organization are worth less than what one requires to live? That we treat them as charity volunteers, supporting a business just because, neither deserving or worthy of affording enough food to eat? We won’t ask why Walmart has people on hand to help employees get public benefits because Walmart knows they don’t pay livable wages, we will simply tell people they’re charity workers there to serve the public at the lowest-possible rate (because outright slavery is illegal) and if they don’t like it, maybe they shouldn’t be so lazy?

Tell me, when the line at the grocery store is too long for your taste, do you also gripe “why don’t they get more cashiers”? Or complain about the idiot who bagged your groceries? Or remark about the rude cashier who it wouldn’t kill to be nicer? Or ask about why the police won’t do anything about the homeless or street beggars?

Or do you just expect the sacrifices that come in keeping the lowest rung as low as possible only be taken on by the people on that rung?

asquirrel said:

Louis Rossmann has a great bit about why Minimum Wage Jobs Need to Suck. Essentially, you need the bottom of whatever society is to be uncomfortable enough that nobody wants to stay there as a way to encourage people to do more than the bare minimum. While you attempt to assault my humanity, the reality is that I am trying to preserve theirs. I'm helping them keep a reason to move forward in life and resist the temptation to settle on that 'being enough'.

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lol, what a crock. I've seen some oversimplifications of human psychology, but this is something else.

asquirrel said:

Thank you for your story. This is a great example of why it's foolish to mandate what people can eat when on assistance. Guidelines are great. Requirements that the money be spent on food only are acceptable. But ultimately the person knows what food they really need.

Have you considered making your own gummies? They aren't terribly complex to make. You could fortify them with vitamins and minerals, make them with natural dies. I have 0 idea if this is within the realm of what you can do. I ask only because it might make that tiny sliver of life just that little bit better.

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No its not foolish to mandate. She can always buy gummies with her own money. My nephew had crones so I understand the struggles. I also have a neighbor that has it. I am empathetic to their struggles. I also know they aren't living off of gummies. They have and need regular food. When going through the tough time and gummies is the only thing that works then go buy some gummies.

There is nothing that says they are forbidden from doing that.

Its patently ridiculous that 1 in 8 Americans are getting SNAP. Its unnecessary. And its unnecessary that illegals come and get it too.

rambot said:

) What other tax dollars do you pay where you can MICROMANAGE how every dollar is spent? None

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Actually all of them. Thats why we have representatives. They can get involved and determine how our money is spent. Government agencies determine ALL the time how the money is spent and what you or anyone else receives and how much. We can absolutely determine how the money is spent. They arent allowed to purchase alcohol with it. I imagine there are other things they can't buy with it either. They can't go out to eat with it.

So yes we can and should micromanage our tax dollars through our legislators. Its my money. Thats what representation is for.

rambot said:

This may be the most absurd comparison I've ever seen in a while.

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No its very apt. Taking money from the successful and giving it away to those who aren't because they either don't have the capacity or skills or motivation is the same thing as taking As from some kids and giving them to other kids who didn't earn it for some reason.

Belk said:

No they are not. They are asking for assistance from their government

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This is part of what's wrong with liberalism. The lack of understanding that we are the government. And every single person, business or corporation who wants money is asking to take money out of the pockets of the citizens of the country and giving it to them. Everytime our taxes go up they are taking more money from me and my family for others. Often for things that does not benefit everyone but a small portion of our society. In fact 50% of our society pays no federal taxes yet takes money from their fellow Americans. And now we are bringing in MORE people who are taking more money from the earners.

Belk said:

If liberals demanded that SNAP recipients could not buy red meat because of its health effects and limited it to tofu they would be rightly castigated. I see this as no different.

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I think you'd find that we'd be okay with that. The best thing we can do for the vast majority of the poor is make them uncomfortable in their poverty so they can gey out of it.

Larniavc said:

That‘s the plot of the Saw movies.

A nice sentiment on this a Christian website. Do you really believe people need to be ‘made desperate’? Is that a personal view? I don’t remember reading that in the Bible.

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It is in the Bible. All over the place. It talks all the time of the importance of work and how you should work because you are getting help. You've never heard that if you do not work you should not eat?

But we aren't talking about how churches or Christians should operate. We are talking about how a SECULAR government should operate. Are you making some sort of argument that the government should operate according to your view of what the Bible says?

Larniavc said:

Would you buy them a stove to heat the food? The pots and pans? Would you buy the fuel for the stove? You example is nice but fundamentally misunderstands the intricacies of what is constructive support and what is performative tokenism.

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Your post shows a total ignorance of the poor in America. We dont live in primitive Africa. Yup, complete and total ignorance.

Tropical Wilds said:

An overwhelming majority of people who hold these “minimum wage jobs” for prolonged periods aren’t doing it because they want to. They do it because they have to.

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No rhey don't. Not the majority. You forget that most of us live in America. We have families, generations, friends, relatives etc. We all know what its like to be in the job market. Most of us have family members who have illnesses, disabilities etc. I have three kids who never went to College. Two of them had to get GEDs. One of rhem has disabilities. I've also worked a minimum wage job. And you know what? None of my family had to work minimum wage jobs long term. They moved on and got better jobs. My daughter who has the disabilities actually has a job now rhat pays well has benefits and a retirement. And I know a lot of people who have struggled. So no im not buying what you are trying to sell here. Not in America.

A person will get whiplash with this stable administration.

Trump threatens to defy courts. 5 hrs later white house says some benefits will remain.


What about this junior high school student union filled with the achool bullies could be viewed as a success?

Servus said:

Yes. No one needs a bag of Doritos. Someone might argue that a bag of chips only costs $3 or whatever. But if it's so cheap, SNAP, WIC and EBT shouldn't be needed to buy it. Since I'm single and there's one right down the street, I get stuff at 7-Eleven on a regular basis. And I see druggy young men stocking up on chips, twinkies, candy, soda and using EBT to get it. So I can't help but think it's like they're being rewarded for doing drugs.

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YOU think shoving that stuff in your face all the time is a "reward"?

rjs330 said:

No rhey don't. Not the majority. You forget that most of us live in America. We have families, generations, friends, relatives etc. We all know what its like to be in the job market. Most of us have family members who have illnesses, disabilities etc. I have three kids who never went to College. Two of them had to get GEDs. One of rhem has disabilities. I've also worked a minimum wage job. And you know what? None of my family had to work minimum wage jobs long term. They moved on and got better jobs. My daughter who has the disabilities actually has a job now rhat pays well has benefits and a retirement. And I know a lot of people who have struggled. So no im not buying what you are trying to sell here. Not in America.

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It feels hard when data suggests a wider truth that is opposite of what we hold closest.

Fact is, the reason you and your family has been successful is because of the YOUR capacity and dedication to your kids success. Not all parents have that and not all disabilities are conquerable for people. Also as hard as a lot of people try it just simply is not enough. Folks working jobs or two jobs still needing snap...remember the dozen times democrats have posted that Walmart and Amazon employees end up on food programs? This is rubber hitting the road.

rjs330 said:

No rhey don't. Not the majority. You forget that most of us live in America. We have families, generations, friends, relatives etc. We all know what it’s like to be in the job market. Most of us have family members who have illnesses, disabilities etc. I have three kids who never went to College. Two of them had to get GEDs. One of rhem has disabilities. I've also worked a minimum wage job. And you know what? None of my family had to work minimum wage jobs long term. They moved on and got better jobs. My daughter who has the disabilities actually has a job now rhat pays well has benefits and a retirement. And I know a lot of people who have struggled. So no im not buying what you are trying to sell here. Not in America.

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I’m seeing a lot of privilege in that post and the assumption that your privilege must extend to everybody else. Not everybody has the benefit of friends, family, or resources. So your admittedly well-connected family wasn’t in minimum wage jobs for long. That’s lucky for you, and terribly unlucky for anybody without a network to give you a boost, and/or part of a minority class. This article does a pretty decent roundup of resources that shows that 44% of people in the workforce occupy low income jobs, and of those 44%, 2/3 have a barrier that prevents advancement. The primary barriers are disability, somebody being a caregiver of family with health and disabilities that require support, and lower than average IQ. Minorities make up a huge chunk, as do women. Areas with too few jobs tend to pay less. Areas that rely on service industry jobs as primary employers pay less and have less advancement opportunities. Areas without public transportation present barriers.

Heck, I was a college educated woman in management, then I had a baby, and an employer who was super great when I had no kids suddenly was less excited about helping me advance. I was flat out told that it was because childless people are more flexible and better bets for long term career planning. When I got sick, my perfect job history, education, stellar reputation, and work ethic meant exactly zero. I lost the jobs I had because my disability accommodations were “unreasonable.” And for the record, those accommodations were one day off every 4 weeks for biologic/chemotherapy, a chair, and access to a bathroom. I was actually told that leaving for the restroom without waiting for permission was unworkable. I was a cashier, not a rocket surgeon.

Recovering my career seemed darn near impossible, and if it wasn’t for my incredibly liberal, employee-owned, employee-first employer, I’d have never found another job. Nobody wanted to hire the girl who could be struck down any second with medical issues, needs time off for lots of appointments, a standing day off every 4 weeks for treatment and a second day to recover, and might actually need to use a bathroom so urgently that she can’t take the time to find coverage and seek permission to do so.

Now while you or others in your family might have gotten a family handout to overcome their setbacks, unless the support for people working minimum wage is to hit up your family for help, it’s largely irrelevant. Statistics show the people who are in those jobs are there by necessity, not laziness.

Like… Do you realize it’s whackers bonkers to assume 44% of working Americans are just super lazy? To assume the person ringing your groceries, handing you your McDonalds, giving you your coffee, is just too lazy or stupid to do anything else, so they don’t deserve to be able to care for themselves? They do deserve to serve you and likely serve you as you enjoy a luxury you want and not a necessity you need, but they should do so at the pay tier as close to slavery as is allowed in the US.

I don’t know… As a Christian, I feel that everybody has a fundamental right to food, shelter, and that if I’m using a service I’m only using because I have disposable income, the people catering to me don’t deserve be shortchanged for the sake of my comfort. There’s all this talk about what people on Snap “don’t need,” but really… Do you need McDonalds especially when it comes via a person not making a decent wage? Is your laziness in getting a cheap, unhealthy burger justification for exploiting the workers who give it to you? You can’t maybe pay a bit more for the thing you don’t need so the person giving it to you can live?

rjs330 said:

No its not foolish to mandate. She can always buy gummies with her own money. My nephew had crones so I understand the struggles.

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I mean, you understand it but can’t even spell it correctly…?

rjs330 said:

I also have a neighbor that has it. I am empathetic to their struggles. I also know they aren't living off of gummies. They have and need regular food. When going through the tough time and gummies is the only thing that works then go buy some gummies.

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This may shock you, but people with IBD aren’t running their safe foods by you, and because of that, you have no idea what they are or aren’t living off of. This idea that because you have a neighbor and a nephew who had “crones” that you have complete knowledge in how they manage their illness successfully is a bit ego maniacal.

I promise you, they have safe foods. I promise you, they know they aren’t the most “healthy” foods. I also promise you, they don’t care. Have a Crohn’s flare and then come back to talk to me about how people who are sick can and should eat. Somebody on food stamps needs to eat an “unhealthy” food to make it though their day? Go for it. I’ll help them load their cart and yell “mind your business” to anybody who gets upset.

As was pointed out by my doctor, gummies may not be nutrient rich, but you know what’s more unhealthy than gummies? Not eating, or eating foods you know will make you ill. The mental fatigue that comes with prolonged illness, also super unhealthy, as is the depression and anxiety in having an uncontrolled illness. If the thing that stops that is bags of gummies? Congrats. Gummies just became the healthy food choice. Add to cart. Enjoy. All others, mind your business.

rjs330 said:

There is nothing that says they are forbidden from doing that.

It’s patently ridiculous that 1 in 8 Americans are getting SNAP. Its unnecessary. And it’s unnecessary that illegals come and get it too.

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“Illegals” don’t get it, and I agree that it’s ridiculous that our system is so broken that so many people need help to eat. Far too many people are willing to enjoy a service they don’t need but don’t want to pay a price that means the person serving them can survive. Or willing to yell at people about gummies and Doritos but not the employers who underpay people so chronically that they can’t survive. They’re the problem, not the food in their carts.

rjs330 said:

Your post shows a total ignorance of the poor in America. We dont live in primitive Africa. Yup, complete and total ignorance.

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You clearly do not work consistently with under-serviced, underprivileged people, nor have any idea the differences between money being tight and money being absent. If I wandered into a food bank and handed somebody a pot, or wandered into a homeless shelter and gave them a box of mac and cheese and a saucepan, I’d have done nothing to help other than show I’m so detached from the realities of abject poverty that I don’t know how to help and I’m not there to help, I’m there to demean and/or get an ego boost. Might as well show up to a winter clothing drive with a pair of high heels and a prom dress, then pat yourself on the back for how well you clothed the poor today.

If a person is taking handouts from a governmnet. They must follow the governmnet guide lines to receive these handouts. So if governmnet moves to make buying junk food a no no with snap handouts. Then the people must follow the guide lines/law.

Tropical Wilds said:

shows that 44% of people in the workforce occupy low income jobs, and of those 44%, 2/3 have a barrier that prevents advancement.

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Another reason why people should seek marriage. Individual income is a sneaky way to complain about wages. If you are married the poverty rate is about 4%. So claiming that 44% is low wages and rhen trying to claim all these people are living on that is a bit decieving.

Tropical Wilds said:

An overwhelming majority of people who hold these “minimum wage jobs” for prolonged periods aren’t doing it because they want to. They do it because they have to.

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Again the majority of people who work a minimum wage job don't do it for prolonged periods of time.

Tropical Wilds said:

The primary barriers are disability

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Now this is something I can get behind. I absolutely believe we should be really helping those who cannot help themselves. I am all for using taxpayer money to give to those who are legitimately disabled. They can't help the fact they were born disabled, became disabled, caught a disease etc. There absolutely are Americans who need our help and we should be helping them. But if you are able bodied then you should be working and striving for a better life for yourself. We shouldnt be enabling people or creating incentives to stay on the dole of your fellow Americans.

Tropical Wilds said:

Like… Do you realize it’s whackers bonkers to assume 44% of working Americans are just super lazy?

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Did I say that? I think you are the one assuming here.

Tropical Wilds said:

They do deserve to serve you and likely serve you as you enjoy a luxury you want and not a necessity you need, but they should do so at the pay tier as close to slavery as is allowed in the US.

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No one is doing that. Only 1% of Americans are earning minimum wage. The majority of those were 24 years old and younger. That should tell you that full time workers rarely live on minimum wage and they don't do so for long term.

Im not arguing for keeping the wage there it is. Im just challenging rhe notions that we have so many people living on minimum wage, teying to raise a family and doing it long term
Its simply not true.

Tropical Wilds said:

There’s all this talk about what people on Snap “don’t need,” but really… Do you need McDonalds especially when it comes via a person not making a decent wage? Is your laziness in getting a cheap, unhealthy burger justification for exploiting the workers who give it to you? You can’t maybe pay a bit more for the thing you don’t need so the person giving it to you can live?

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Give me a break. The people who work at McDonalds anymore arent making minimum wage. Around here they are making $20-$25 and hour. And my Quarter pounder meal costs $12.

A family eating at McDonalds can easily cost $50 or more.

Say you had two people working g there and now that family is making minimum of $40 and hour. Thats enough to live on.

When I started my current job 15 years ago I was making $25 an hour.

Just be careful about what you have been programmed to believe by leftist media and internet sites with a leftist agenda.

rjs330 said:

Your post shows a total ignorance of the poor in America. We dont live in primitive Africa. Yup, complete and total ignorance.

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Lol! I've worked with families with a frying pan, 2 plates and 3 spoons and no working oven.

They're landlord was an expletive. That tends to be the case.

rjs330 said:

Give me a break. The people who work at McDonalds anymore arent making minimum wage. Around here they are making $20-$25 and hour. And my Quarter pounder meal costs $12.

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source? Haven't seen a McDonalds wage over 16$

Are you thinking about the Denmark meme?

rjs330 said:

Are you making some sort of argument that the government should operate according to your view of what the Bible says?

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No. But Christians should.

rjs330 said:

Another reason why people should seek marriage. Individual income is a sneaky way to complain about wages. If you are married the poverty rate is about 4%. So claiming that 44% is low wages and rhen trying to claim all these people are living on that is a bit decieving.

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Interesting. So the solution to poverty is to get married and find somebody to support you, making marriage a transactional arraignment? And when they have kids, what then?

rjs330 said:

Again the majority of people who work a minimum wage job don't do it for prolonged periods of time.

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So let’s pretend that’s true. Is the implication still that because they don’t do it for long, that makes it ok to pay people non-livable wages? Unethical pay practices are fine because people don’t stay in those jobs, and the ones who do need money less?

rjs330 said:

Now this is something I can get behind. I absolutely believe we should be really helping those who cannot help themselves. I am all for using taxpayer money to give to those who are legitimately disabled. They can't help the fact they were born disabled, became disabled, caught a disease etc. There absolutely are Americans who need our help and we should be helping them. But if you are able bodied then you should be working and striving for a better life for yourself. We shouldnt be enabling people or creating incentives to stay on the dole of your fellow Americans.

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Cool. So you’re ok with helping people who are disabled. And yet, a program that helps those people is inaccessible right now and people are comforting themselves by saying “well, there are people on that program I feel don’t deserve it” and now that has become the main talking point… Isolating the people who it is assumed don’t deserve it and calling them lazy, enabled, and entitled.

Like I said… There are people who will set a table to feed 100 people and risk that some of them “didn’t deserve it” as long as everybody will be fed that day. Then there are people who’d destroy the table because they’d rather everybody go hungry than give somebody they deem unworthy a meal they “don’t need.” As a Christian, God clearly commands the former not the latter, and as a person with a sense of ethics and morality, I think living in a land of plenty and being content with people starting is fundamentally wrong, I’m happy to be the former.

rjs330 said:

Did I say that? I think you are the one assuming here.

No one is doing that. Only 1% of Americans are earning minimum wage. The majority of those were 24 years old and younger. That should tell you that full time workers rarely live on minimum wage and they don't do so for long term.

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I just showed you that 44% of Americans work for wages that make them low income and unable to pay for basic needs. You can fiddle with the numbers and make it more palatable by saying only 1% of them are at minimum wage, a wage so laughably low and outdated that any employer who uses it as a base rate of pay is outright admitting they absolutely do not care about their employees and would pay them even less if it weren’t for the law, but your statistical manipulation doesn’t change the facts that a large swath of Americans are at jobs that won’t support basic living.

And I’d like to point out, the under 24 demographic deserves to sustain themselves too. At 18 I was living on my own, had bills, needed to eat, and unless there was some benefit that I’m unaware of, groceries, rent, and utilities didn’t “you’re under 24” discounts. Though apparently your solution to that is I should have found a man to use for money to marry and get by.

rjs330 said:

Im not arguing for keeping the wage there it is. Im just challenging rhe notions that we have so many people living on minimum wage, teying to raise a family and doing it long term
Its simply not true.

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No, you’re arguing because you think there aren’t a lot of them, they don’t do it for long, and they’re young, they are acceptable losses in the cogs of capitalism. Don’t feed 100 because you risk feeding somebody who is lazy and doesn’t deserve it.

I’m pointing out there are millions of them, there are plenty of people who do do it for a long time, and the percentage of people do so because of a barrier that makes them unable to advance. Feeding 100 because I’d rather make sure everybody eats and risk a few who “don’t deserve it” get through. Especially as we’ve established you believe the ones who “don’t deserve it” are people 24 and under, working at poverty wages out of laziness or fun, and single people who (for some weird reason) won’t marry for money.

rjs330 said:

Give me a break. The people who work at McDonalds anymore arent making minimum wage. Around here they are making $20-$25 and hour. And my Quarter pounder meal costs $12.

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Oh no. The thing you established is junk food that nobody needs and believe some don’t deserve because there are cheaper, healthier options and should only be regarded as a treat for those with disposable income costs “a lot” of money because the person who’s serving you the treat you don’t need and comes through disposal income needs to be able to afford to live too. What a bummer.

rjs330 said:

A family eating at McDonalds can easily cost $50 or more.

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Yup. Convenience and luxuries cost more. And as you pointed out, junk food is non essential and cheaper, healthier options exist for those who can’t afford the luxury of premade food.

rjs330 said:

Say you had two people working g there and now that family is making minimum of $40 and hour. Thats enough to live on.

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Except statistically employers who pay that are also not giving full time hours, and when you don’t work full-time hours, you need a second job. When you work a second job, you’re looking for a job that will be less than full time, which are the lower paying jobs. When you’re telling those potential employer that you can’t work open availability because you have a second job, you are now a less desirable candidate. If you have another barrier, like disabilities or cognitive delays, you’re even less desirable.

Congratulations. You’re now that person stuck living below poverty level. If you’re lucky enough to want to go to college and better your situation, $40 a hour for two people is no longer enough. If you are sick, $40 is no longer enough. Better find somebody to marry to pay your bills, I guess. And better hope they don’t get sick and unable to work, because now you aren’t making it, you’re lazy, and it’s your fault.

rjs330 said:

When I started my current job 15 years ago I was making $25 an hour.

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So what? Who cares? What does that have to do with anything?

rjs330 said:

Just be careful about what you have been programmed to believe by leftist media and internet sites with a leftist agenda.

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Just be careful about who you have been programmed to believe is expendable and who deserves to not eat, or who deserves to dwell in poverty because you have judged them unworthy of a pay that keeps them fed and housed. Just be careful that you aren’t pretending it’s not a problem because you’ve invented a boogeyman, called them liberals, and your fear of the boogeyman you invented for yourself is so all-encompassing, so tremendous, you’re ok with sacrificing other people on the altar of your ignorance in order to get by.