Is the way you worship important?

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Many may be called, but few are chosen.
Trust Jesus. Listen to Jesus. Come to Jesus and learn from Him (He Says) for HIS WAY IS EASY!
Follow Jesus. His sheep Know His Voice and follow Him.

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Xeno.of.athens said:

should you kneel when you pray, should you be standing when you pray?

Click to expand...

This question, as to whether we should kneel or rather make metanies while praying, or stand, is interestingly addressed by Canon XX of Nicaea, which is also sadly the single-most widely ignored canon of any ecumenical synod.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Should you receive Holy Communion Every time you gather

Click to expand...

Only if one is properly disposed to receive it via fasting and preparation, and only if the liturgical service is a Divine Liturgy or Mass vs. a Divine Office service such as Vespers or Compline or another kind of sacramental service such as Holy Unction.

Xeno.of.athens said:

should you be baptised once or more than once?

Click to expand...

According to the Nicene Creed we confess one baptism for the remission of sins, so as long as the first baptism was valid, made in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost under conditions of correct belief, for example, not within Mormonism or certain other heretical sects (most of which do not use that term).

Xeno.of.athens said:

is it OK to dance while you're in church? is it OK to speak in tongues even if you had no idea what those tongues might mean and you don't know what you're saying?

Click to expand...

In my view, these two activities are inconsistent wit the Pauline instruction that everything be done “decently and in order.”

Some people say the Ethiopians have liturgical dance … but if the backwards and forwards movement made by debteras during the Divine Office is dance, I should say the bar has been set so low that we might as well regard the Introit and Recessional in the Western mass or the Little Entrance and Great Entrance in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy as dance.

Really, when it comes to liturgy I am an arch-traditionalist, so I am uncomfortable if the liturgy we’re talking about can’t be traced back in some form to at least the 16th century (interestingly, the average age of the current recensions of most liturgical rites is about 500 years, not counting minor changes in the 19th and early 20th century such as the 1928 American BCP, 1928 Deposited Book and 1929 Scottish BCP, Divino Afflatu or the Revised Julian Calendar combined with the Violakis Typikon).

But just to use an ancient liturgy is not enough - we must worship beautifully. Our goal should be to evoke the reaction of the emissaries of St. Vladimir the Great at the Hagia Sophia in 1,000 AD: “We knew not whether we were on heaven or on Earth.” Because of liturgical beauty at Hagia Sophia, around 350 million people around the world including all Orthodox Christians of Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Finnish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Polish, Central Asian, Siberian, Native Alaskan, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and North American backgrounds were saved, not counting those countries whose Christian populations were protected as a result of the Baptism of Kiev, such as the Christians of Georgia, Armenia, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia and the Assyrians during WWI.*

*The Assyrians, including Suroye and Asuraya Christians of the Syriac Orthodox, Assyrian, Chaldean Catholic and Maronite churches survived the genocide in part through Czarist military assistance after the initial massacre in the Sayfo in 1915 when around 90% of Assyrians living in Ottoman territory were brutally murdered as part of the genocide that also killed the majority of Armenians and resulted in the complete displacement of Pontic Greeks from Asia Minor, so that there are no Greek Orthodox churches left in places such as Ephesus, Bursa or Nicaea. Likewise such assistance was instrumental in the liberation of the Serbian, Bulgarian and Romanian Christians.

I should add @Xeno.of.athens that much of what I love about the Roman Catholic Church is the liturgical beauty of so many of its rites, such as the traditional Roman, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Lyonaise, Sarum and other liturgical rites, through which Western Europeans worshipped Christ our True God since antiquity, as well as a large number of Eastern liturgical rites including the same Byzantine Rite used by the Orthodox, and various Oriental Rites, often in interesting variant forms, for example, the Maronite Use of the West Syriac Rite.

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him? should you kneel when you pray, should you be standing when you pray? Should you receive Holy Communion Every time you gather should you be baptised once or more than once? is it OK to dance while you're in church? is it OK to speak in tongues even if you had no idea what those tongues might mean and you don't know what you're saying?

cheque out your answers to see if they fit with what the Bible has to say. The Old Testament has a few things to say about worship so does The New testament.

Or do you not really care very much about what the Bible has to say on worship and you just go along with whatever your denomination says is good?

Click to expand...

We're all going to be influenced by our culture, our temperament and our particular experience of church tradition.

For myself when I became a Christian I was in a conservative Presbyterian congregation. My wife goes to a conservative Baptist church and I am now in a conservative Catholic Church. I'm biased towards a fairly formal Western church liturgy through personal experience, and to some extent personal temperament.

If i were an Ethiopean watching "the backwards and forwards movement made by debteras during the Divine Office", I wouldn't bat an eyelid. Likewise I think I'd find find the atmosphere in a Southern African American Gospel church a bit overpowering, while they would most likely think our liturgy was boring.

As for receiving Holy Communion and how often, we only received communion every three months in the Presbyterian Church. In the Catholic Church I go to, I could go every day if I wanted to. The Presbyterian pastor addressed this issue saying "Some churches think Communion is so important and so sacred that they think it should be a solemn event only celebrated every three months, and taken very seriously. Some churches think it is so important they think it should be celebrated monthly, and take it earnestly. Some denonimations think it is so important they think it should be available every week, and take it with a lot of respect.. And others think it is so important they think it should be available every day, but only after due self examination."

Who is right? One thing I do know is that we're told not to judge others, and while we may disagree with some aspects of their liturgy, we need to judge ourselves first.

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him?

Click to expand...

Yes, in regard to where our heart and mind are at.

Xeno.of.athens said:

should you kneel when you pray, should you be standing when you pray?

Click to expand...

Both are acceptable. 1 Thessalonians 5:17 says to pray continually. So that would mean kneeling, standing, walking, driving, laying in bed etc. Laying prostrate before the Lord is an example of showing total humility and worship.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Should you receive Holy Communion Every time you gather

Click to expand...

There's no specific biblical instruction for that. In Paul's time the Eucharist, which means thanksgiving, was a large communal meal.

Xeno.of.athens said:

should you be baptised once or more than once?

Click to expand...

There's no biblical instruction for being baptized more than once as long as one was baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Xeno.of.athens said:

is it OK to dance while you're in church?

Click to expand...

Dancing took place in the Old Testament on special occasions.

Xeno.of.athens said:

is it OK to speak in tongues even if you had no idea what those tongues might mean and you don't know what you're saying?

Click to expand...

There's nothing in the Bible endorcing that practice.

Xeno.of.athens said:

cheque out your answers to see if they fit with what the Bible has to say. The Old Testament has a few things to say about worship so does The New testament.

Or do you not really care very much about what the Bible has to say on worship and you just go along with whatever your denomination says is good?

Click to expand...

In following biblical guidance on worship, one should be on solid ground.

We are to worship, "in Spirit and in truth". These are metal factors and not what is physically going on or the place it is happening. We can quench people's experience, by distracting them.

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him? should you kneel when you pray, should you be standing when you pray? Should you receive Holy Communion Every time you gather should you be baptised once or more than once? is it OK to dance while you're in church? is it OK to speak in tongues even if you had no idea what those tongues might mean and you don't know what you're saying?

cheque out your answers to see if they fit with what the Bible has to say. The Old Testament has a few things to say about worship so does The New testament.

Or do you not really care very much about what the Bible has to say on worship and you just go along with whatever your denomination says is good?

Click to expand...

I believe the Lord permits various expressions to worship God in spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 etc.).If somehow a person does this in light of His commandments ( John 14:15-18 etc,) then I guess it must be right. How it all works, the Lord knows.

Personally, I worship within the liturgy and the Eucharist is given to the faithful. We should discern where necessary but realize expressions vary among Christians.

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him? should you kneel when you pray, should you be standing when you pray? Should you receive Holy Communion Every time you gather should you be baptised once or more than once? is it OK to dance while you're in church? is it OK to speak in tongues even if you had no idea what those tongues might mean and you don't know what you're saying?

cheque out your answers to see if they fit with what the Bible has to say. The Old Testament has a few things to say about worship so does The New testament.

Or do you not really care very much about what the Bible has to say on worship and you just go along with whatever your denomination says is good?

Click to expand...

Hmmmmmm,...... good subject.

"...in spirit and in truth"

Everything stems from our being, our heart. I worship GOD by my spirit in prayer, obviously in the gift of tongues as a Pentecostal, but I also worship Him with my honesty, how truthful I am when I speak to HIM, how much I share my heart with HIM.

To feel The Holy Spirit enwrap my whole body after a small talk with GOD let's me know just how much HE likes how honest I am with HIM. I talk to HIM as a person.

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him? should you kneel when you pray, should you be standing when you pray? Should you receive Holy Communion Every time you gather should you be baptised once or more than once? is it OK to dance while you're in church? is it OK to speak in tongues even if you had no idea what those tongues might mean and you don't know what you're saying?

cheque out your answers to see if they fit with what the Bible has to say. The Old Testament has a few things to say about worship so does The New testament.

Or do you not really care very much about what the Bible has to say on worship and you just go along with whatever your denomination says is good?

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ of Nazareth did teach about how we should worship, however it s not what you think . In his words:

John 4:23-24
"true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" .

His teachings shifted the focus from specific physical locations or rituals to the inner heart, sincere obedience, and a life lived in love for God and others.
Blessings

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him? should you kneel when you pray, should you be standing when you pray? Should you receive Holy Communion Every time you gather should you be baptised once or more than once? is it OK to dance while you're in church? is it OK to speak in tongues even if you had no idea what those tongues might mean and you don't know what you're saying?

cheque out your answers to see if they fit with what the Bible has to say. The Old Testament has a few things to say about worship so does The New testament.

Or do you not really care very much about what the Bible has to say on worship and you just go along with whatever your denomination says is good?

Click to expand...

My question, and where you will ultimately lead, is if worshipping as the RCC teaches the only and proper way for Christians to worship God. My answer is, of course, not even close.

I don't know but I suspect God finds all worship of Him done in sincerity acceptable and pleasing. I also suspect the particulars of how I worship may be more important to me than it is to Him. I find some modes of worship more meaningful to me than others and more nurturing of my faith than others. The ways of worship have been primary to me when selecting a church.

Servus said:

There's no specific biblical instruction for that. In Paul's time the Eucharist, which means thanksgiving, was a large communal meal.

Click to expand...

Forgive me, but that is erroneous, albeit a very a common misunderstanding, even propagated by some liberal liturgiologists whose work I otherwise like, such as Paul Bradshaw and Maxwell E. Johnson. We know that is not the case from first, second and third century liturgical texts like the Didache and the ancient liturgy of the Church of the East (Addai and Mari), the ancient liturgy of Alexandria usually called the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark or St. Cyril, found in the Strasbourg Papyrus and the Euchologion of St. Sarapion of Thmuis among other ancient sources, and the ancient liturgy of Antioch, found in the third century Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus and still in use in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (which owing to the shared Semitic language, adopted a liturgy based on that of the West Syriac Christians of Antioch, and after 16 centuries, still in use) and in a variant textual form, used by the Syriac Orthodox Church and Maronite Catholics (the Liturgy of the Twelve Apostles) and the Eastern Orthodox Church (the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom). There is also the fact that the early church, and to this day the Orthodox churches, provide at a minimum blessed bread (antidoron) after the liturgy, and canons indicate this is an ancient practice, and we have ancient canons prohibiting the use of an unmixed chalice, the substitution of water for wine, the use of milk and honey and the use of fish in the Eucharist, and also the ancient practice of the Agape, or love-feast, still celebrated by all Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches as often as conditions permit.

But the most compelling evidence is in Scripture itself. If the Eucharist were an ordinary meal, 1 Corinthians 11:27-34 would not make much sense, and then we have the Lord’s Prayer. “Give us this day our daily bread” is a mistranslation - the original Greek uses a word that literally means “supersubstantial.”

Add to that all of the early Church Fathers describing it as “the Medicine of Immortality”, the descriptions of the Eucharist in St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons, and many other ante-Nicene fathers, and the idea of the Eucharist being the vestige of a love feast becomes untenable, as opposed to the reality of Holy Communion as a separate, sacramental and salvific rite, together with Baptism of one the two central mysteries of Early Church. Indeed even an Apostolic belief in the Real Presence is attested to by pericopes such as John ch. 6, and 2 Peter ch. 1.

Lukaris said:

I believe the Lord permits various expressions to worship God in spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 etc.).If somehow a person does this in light of His commandments ( John 14:15-18 etc,) then I guess it must be right. How it all works, the Lord knows.

Personally, I worship within the liturgy and the Eucharist is given to the faithful. We should discern where necessary but realize expressions vary among Christians.

Click to expand...

Indeed, but we should as Orthodox nonetheless differentiate between what are valid cultural variations of the liturgy, for example, the Western Rite, and what forms of worship are actually defective.

I take the view that most traditional liturgical churches have a liturgical form that falls within the pale of Orthodoxy, aside from a few echos of problematic doctrinal differences such as the filioque (which recently we persuaded a large number of Lutheran churches to drop).

The most problematic issues are worship driven not by ancient hymns but by Christian rock and “praise and worship” music, and variations on sacraments adopted to suit…the demands of contemporary views on sexual morality.

In the Ten Commandments the first commandment says to only worship God (have no other gods before Me). Exo 20:3. The 4th commandments tells us which God that is, the one who made the heavens and earth and everything in them Exo 20:11, its the only God that has the power to sanctify both a day Gen 2:1-3 and us Eze 20:20

According to Scripture obedience is related to worship. Whoever we obey is who we serve. Rom6:16

Jesus related false worship as those who obey their own traditions./commandments over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14

Paul warns about being cheated by who we listen to following traditions of men instead of Christ

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

We are told there will be a great falling away from the truth in the last days which we are in

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables

Why in Revelation before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ we are called back to worship the God of Creation


Rev 14:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3


In the end there will be two groups- one who worships (obeys) the beast. The beast is the one who changed God's times and laws Dan7:25 that sadly most follow instead of worshipping the Creator the way He asked. Exo 20:8-11

The only way to avoid that is by staying faithful to God.

Rev 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The antidote

Rev 14:12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Our decisions will determine which path we are on and what we hear at His Second Coming. Whoever we obey is who we serve. Rom6:16


Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

What law?


15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .

The whole Bible is about the testimony of God through His prophets and disciples. But yet when it comes to God's own personally written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18 few believe.

Jesus is God.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Why we see the ark of the covenant which holds God's Testimony Exo 40:20 revealed at the last trumpet before He returns Rev 11:18-19 Rev 15:5

Xeno.of.athens said:

do you believe that God cares about how you worship him?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Bob Crowley said:

We're all going to be influenced by our culture, our temperament and our particular experience of church tradition.

For myself when I became a Christian I was in a conservative Presbyterian congregation. My wife goes to a conservative Baptist church and I am now in a conservative Catholic Church. I'm biased towards a fairly formal Western church liturgy through personal experience, and to some extent personal temperament.

If i were an Ethiopean watching "the backwards and forwards movement made by debteras during the Divine Office", I wouldn't bat an eyelid. Likewise I think I'd find find the atmosphere in a Southern African American Gospel church a bit overpowering, while they would most likely think our liturgy was boring.

As for receiving Holy Communion and how often, we only received communion every three months in the Presbyterian Church. In the Catholic Church I go to, I could go every day if I wanted to. The Presbyterian pastor addressed this issue saying "Some churches think Communion is so important and so sacred that they think it should be a solemn event only celebrated every three months, and taken very seriously. Some churches think it is so important they think it should be celebrated monthly, and take it earnestly. Some denonimations think it is so important they think it should be available every week, and take it with a lot of respect.. And others think it is so important they think it should be available every day, but only after due self examination."

Who is right? One thing I do know is that we're told not to judge others, and while we may disagree with some aspects of their liturgy, we need to judge ourselves first.

Click to expand...

Luther's words still ring true in his Christian Questions and Answers:

18. Finally, why do you wish to go to the Sacrament?​

That I may learn to believe that Christ, out of great love, died for my sin, and also learn from Him to love God and my neighbor.

19. What should admonish and encourage a Christian to receive the Sacrament frequently?​

First, both the command and the promise of Christ the Lord. Second, his own pressing need, because of which the command, encouragement, and promise are given.

20. But what should you do if you are not aware of this need and have no hunger and thirst for the Sacrament?​

To such a person no better advice can be given than this: first, he should touch his body to see if he still has flesh and blood. Then he should believe what the Scriptures say of it in Galatians 5 and Romans 7. Second, he should look around to see whether he is still in the world, and remember that there will be no lack of sin and trouble, as the Scriptures say in John 15–16 and in 1 John 2 and 5.

Third, he will certainly have the devil also around him, who with his lying and murdering day and night will let him have no peace, within or without, as the Scriptures picture him in John 8 and 16; 1 Peter 5; Ephesians 6; and 2 Timothy 2.

Note: These questions and answers are no child’s play, but are drawn up with great earnestness of purpose by the venerable and devout Dr. Luther for both young and old. Let each one pay attention and consider it a serious matter; for St. Paul writes to the Galatians in chapter six: “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.”