Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

Daniel Martinovich said:

Consider the verse below when thinking about the modern nation of Israel.

Isaiah 54:9 To me this is like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth. So now I have sworn not to be angry with you, never to rebuke you again.

The Apostle Paul declares the obvious in Galatians 4:26-27. That Isaiah 54 is a prophecy about the New Jerusalem. The context of that chapter is Old Testament believer’s being illustrated as the wife of God suffering at the hands of their own wicked kings and the gentile nations; someday winning the nations by the gospel and through that inheriting the world. This is why Paul called the New Jerusalem the mother of all New Testament believers. OT saints in Ancient Israel gave birth to NT saints, both Jew and Gentile.

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No, Paul was using an allegory. Jerusalem below and Jerusalem above represented the difference between enslavement to sin with its legal condemnation and liberation from sin and from its legal condemnation. When we're born of God's promise we live by the word of God, and not merely by the letter of the Law.

The letter of the Law is void of God's word and power, and not only produces a record of sin but also reduces one to sin. The "letter," by definition is external observance of the Law without spiritual application.

On the other hand, those who live by God's power not only are freed from condemnation through Christ but they also obtain his power to overcome sin.

The old Jerusalem represents those who have rejected God's word and power, and are thus condemned to live in the enslavement of sin. But the new Jerusalem represents those who God has promised by His word, who therefore respond to God's word and embrace His righteousness.

Daniel Martinovich said:

Here is how Isaiah 54:9 ties into the debate over the two extremes between those who teach the name Israel IS ONLY referring to the Jews and modern Israel and God's covenant with them. Verses those who say Israel is now the church and God's NT covenant. In both the OT and NT we see God is almost continuously angry with Ancient Israel for its sin. The reason for this is God chose both the saints and sinners out of one nation, Ancient Israel, to bring his word and the Messiah into the earth. It was his Normandy beach head for his long-planned invasion of planet earth to spread the influence of his invisible kingdom.

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Not quite correct, as I see it. Yes, Israel was divided between the Sheep and the Goats. But the reality was that with the Israeli nation, sin became so dominant that the entire nation fell. Those who remained loyal to God were very few in number.

Those in Israel who fell never to rise again were the Goats who rejected God's word. And though they were still counted as Israelites, they ceased to be God's People in the way that God had planned Israel to be. God had promised Abraham a nation of faith, just as he had had faith. Those who did not demonstrate such faith proved to be illegitimate Jews, though Jews nonetheless.

On the other hand, the few Israelites who remained faithful to God, who embraced Christ, God's Son, became the hope for Israel's future national restoration. It would come at the 2nd Coming of Christ, but not before, because sin has continued to dominate the nation in the present age.

And this is the destiny of every nation called and chosen of God. These nations produce God's Sheep. But over time the nations once dedicated to Christ slip away into compromise and backsliding until these nations become utterly apostate. Then it is that the hope is in Christ's return to restore these nations by judging the sinners, and raising up the faithful as judges over the restored nations.

Daniel Martinovich said:

Once the mission God chose all of Ancient Israel for was complete. His focus became the expansion of that influence worldwide. First through Jewish believers that naturally added Gentile believers to that mix. This new mix of believers, illustrated in the Bible’s prophecy was given a new name- The New Jerusalem

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God didn't add Gentiles to Israel. Rather, he added other nations, along with Israel, to be His people. This is precisely what God had promised Abraham, the nation Israel and many nations to share in the faith of Abraham. This was not a mix in the nation Israel, but rather, the addition to Israel of many nations, even though in the present age Israel remains in a kind of spiritual paralysis.

Daniel Martinovich said:

That is why God would no longer be angry with his people. They are no longer a mix of ethnic Israeli's who had the faith of Abraham along with the ethnic Israeli's who refused that faith. Instead, his people, illustratively spoken of as God’s bride and the New Jerusalem consist of a mix of ethnic Israelis and gentiles who have embraced the faith of Abraham- in and of the Messiah.

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I don't think so. God will cease punishing the nation Israel when Christ returns and destroys the rebels and the rebellion in Israel, awakening those in Israel who had been prepared for repentance. At the revelation of Christ many will repent while those who had rebelled will be suppressed or destroyed.

Daniel Martinovich said:

Does this mean ethnic Israelis, or Jews, who do not have or refuse the faith of Abraham are no longer God’s chosen people? That would depend on narrative you look at Bible's prophecy through. Which by the way is the main point of friction between the two extremes. One extreme says yes because there is end of the world prophecy in the Bible that revolves around a modern nation of Israel. One says no because only believers count as the children of Abraham by faith so the modern nation is an aberration not mentioned in scripture.

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God promised Abraham nations that would covenant with Him to be His nations. This always, in the age of human mortality, means that nations are mixed. But even mixed nations can devote themselves to one God and one religion.

Such has been Israel in OT times. And such has been Christian nations in NT times. The mix between genuine believers of promise and imitation believers does not prevent a nation from erecting complete nations with one religion.

Nations rise, nations fall, and nations can rise again. Israel, in times of backsliding, goes through down times. But God can prepare them, after much suffering, to rise again. That's what I think God is preparing Israel for, to experience their final deliverance, never to fall again.

After all, the salvation promised to the nation in the OT era under the Law promised them a political salvation, which is based on simple repentance from ungodliness. Both Sheep and Goats can repent of their sins. When the nation repents, and all can, then the nation can be completely restored--not half a nation or a small remnant of a nation, but an entire nation.

The mix of Sheep and Goats, true and imitation, can all make covenant together to serve their one true God. This is, I believe, what God promised Abraham--flawed, and yet loyal nations, until sin is completely eradicated in the new creation.

Daniel Martinovich said:

But what says the scripture? Well, according to many chapters of prophecy like Isaiah 54, 60, 61, 62, 65 Rev 20-22. Daniel 2 & 7 They say billions would come to Christ after the Roman Empire ends which happened in 1453 AD; and the natural result of that would be a world transforming for the better. We now know this was due to the general public, (illegally) beginning to gain access to their own Bibles to read themselves right when that empire ended. This is what the Bible means when it said the meek, or the saints, shall inherit the earth. It's why we went from the perpetual rule of kings and emperors to a growing free world of republics as it states in the passage below.

Isaiah 29:18-20 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. For the tyrannical oppressor is brought to nothing…….

Now we have the key to understanding why modern Israel exists. The process of meek inheriting the earth would providentially lead to the world having mercy on the Jewish people and bringing them back to the land promised to Abraham. NOT for some end of the world apocalypse. But rather as part of the process of the meek inheriting the earth. As stated in the prophecy below. The regions future is 10’s of millions of Jews, Arabs, Egyptians and Syrians finding the faith of Abraham in Jesus their savior. The natural result of theirs and the Bible’s influence will be the transformation of the region. It's how the prophecy below is being fulfilled. All the war, death and destruction is Satan’s doings through darkened hearts to try to stop this from happening. Over the long run, it is not going to work.

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No, Israel has its own national salvation. Other nations may find their own national salvation if they collectively make God their God, and make a covenant with Him to make Him their God and to be His People--just as Israel did originally.

Israel is not expanding and saving many nations by mixing them into their own nation and people. Rather, Israel is saved when they repent of their sins as a whole people. Then the nation may be fully restored, and not just partially, as it is today.

The Jews have tried to act civilized and compliant with the world. But they have not yet recognized the Messianic source of their repentance. When they do so, a full national restoration will take place.

Maybe I've understood you, and maybe not. Anyway, hopefully you'll get an idea of what I believe on this matter? Thanks for bringing up an interesting subject!