The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

fhansen said:

So, here we go. You agree with those who say that our justification is only declared but you disagree with those who say that said declaration /forgiveness of sin would be sufficient; sin must be and will be overcome in the regenerate in your view. And yet, like them and most of us, you also believe that no one will achieve perfect sinlessness in this life. True? So, do you have a line-or some guidelines- for yourself or others located somewhere between wanton egregious sin and lighter, far less ugly sins that might demarcate a distinction between a true believer/the elect and the reprobate?

I mean, without being judgmental, if we see a person persistently engaged in tawdry stuff then we would most likely surmise that they're not walking and talking like a child of God would and should, right? We might even want to warn them, as Scritpure tells us we should. At what point do we determine that their sin isn't serious enough to bother with?

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Well, that problem is put pretty nicely! But I think there is an answer. The difference between saint and sinner is not Sin. Saints can become pretty ugly sinners in a state of temporary backsliding. And it may seem that some will *never* repent!

But I think the true born again Child of God knows in his or her heart of the evil they're trying to rationalize away. I know, believe me! I fought against my own guilt for some time before I capitulated to God and to my conscience!

So, what really is the difference when one is born again, and yet sins? I think that the truly reborn have an enlightened conscience and a residual interest in "being Saved." They may be addicted to sin but still not want to be separated from God, their Father.

At any rate, when we see a brother or sister fall into sin we should try to rescue them. This may be a matter of longsuffering and patience, but we should make an effort, and then give the situation over to God.

RandyPNW said:

As such, the Law of Moses may inform us as to what is "moral." But we are directed under the New Covenant system to obtain our obedience through the work of Christ and not through our own temporary work, which has been invalidated by the Law. Our work now "follows us" because of the mercy God has shown us through Christ. We now live through him, and not through the Law.

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Yes, but that's not just an occurrence, that happens to us without our participation; that's a directive. Grace precedes everything, and yet we must follow, we must pick up that cross daily. Augustine in "On Nature and Grace" explains thusly:

"Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing."

Our "job" is to remain in Him, continuing to follow.

SabbathBlessings said:

If we live through Him would He be breaking any of the Ten Commandments? That’s what you seem to be indicating, living through Jesus being in Him, we would do the opposite of His life and example.

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Jesus' example would look very much like a Jew living under the 10 Commandments without the requirement to "observe the Sabbath Day." Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath and had no need to observe a holy day. This was a rule for sinful Israel to remind them that their works were imperfect. By contrast, Jesus' work was perfect.

So, I channel the 10 Commandments through Jesus, who is the one we live for--not the Law. The Law contained the 10 Commandments, which were largely general morality commandments. But Jesus contains in his spirit and record a lawful spirit that exemplify all of the morality of the 10 Commandments.

In him we essentially do the same thing a Jew would've done under the 10 Commandments of the Law, minus observing the Sabbath Law, which he fulfilled in his own finished work on the cross. Since his work of redemption is finished, we now get our rest not in the Sabbath Day but much better, in the rest he obtained from the record of our sinful works. We can rest in his forgiveness.

We don't follow a priesthood, a temple, and sacrifices under the Law, nor do we follow the Sabbath Day under the Law. Instead, under the New Covenant we follow Christ as our new priest, temple, and sacrifice, along with eliminating the need to rest from our sinful works. Our forgiveness now has been made permanent.

RandyPNW said:

Jesus' example would look very much like a Jew living under the 10 Commandments without the requirement to "observe the Sabbath Day." Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath and had no need to observe a holy day. This was a rule for sinful Israel to remind them that their works were imperfect. By contrast, Jesus' work was perfect.

So, I channel the 10 Commandments through Jesus, who is the one we live for--not the Law. The Law contained the 10 Commandments, which were largely general morality commandments. But Jesus contains in his spirit and record a lawful spirit that exemplify all of the morality of the 10 Commandments.

In him we essentially do the same thing a Jew would've done under the 10 Commandments of the Law, minus observing the Sabbath Law, which he fulfilled in his own finished work on the cross. Since his work of redemption is finished, we now get our rest not in the Sabbath Day but much better, in the rest he obtained from the record of our sinful works. We can rest in his forgiveness.

We don't follow a priesthood, a temple, and sacrifices under the Law, nor do we follow the Sabbath Day under the Law. Instead, under the New Covenant we follow Christ as our new priest, temple, and sacrifice, along with eliminating the need to rest from our sinful works. Our forgiveness now has been made permanent.

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I deleted my post because I knew I would only receive an answer on personal philosophy as if that is the same as God’s word. Something Paul warned about Col 2:8

Thats fine you do not have to keep the commandments of God including the Sabbath despite Jesus and the apostles doing before/after the Cross. Luke 4:16 Luke 23:56 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Act 15:21 Acts 18:4 Mat24:20 etc its just for Jews you claim, but God said it was made for man Mark2:27 and everyone who loves and wants to join themselves to Him Isa 56:6.

I am not familiar with any passage that we are not to follow the example of Jesus. If you wish to follow another instead of God the Creator Eze 20:20 Exo 20:11 Rev 14:7 that fine. If one wishes to choose their own sanctification Isa 66:17 instead of God’s Eze 20:12 thats a choice too.

God loves us so much He will not force His Sabbath blessing Isa 56:2 Rev 22:14 Isa 66:23 on those who rebel. It will continue on for God’s saints Rev 14:12 just as the Lord, who is above man said Isa 66:23. Like Paul said we can be cheated out of our salvation by who we listen to. Jesus said so too Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 God’s judgement is one of love because not everyone will be happy in heaven where there is no more sin John 3:19-21 and the saints will continue every Sabbath for worship, thus saith the Lord. If we do not want to come before the Lord to worship Him on His holy Sabbath day now Exo 20:8-11 Lev 23:3 Isa 58:13 I think one is only deceiving themselves that they will suddenly want to when He comes again. At that time our decisions are sealed Rev 22:11

Soyeong said:

The issue of what type of contract the Mosaic Covenant is is independent of the issue of who it is made with.

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I don’t agree. Every contract is for a number of terms for a distinct person or group. The Mosaic covenant was given to Moses to give to Israel. The covenant for the Christian church is the new covenant of blood depicted in Luke 22:20.

Soyeong said:

For example, God said that he was a husband to Israel (Jeremiah 31:32) and Israel's unfaithfulness was described as adultery, with eventually got so bad that God wrote the Northern Kingdom a write of divorce (Jeremiah 3:8).

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Nothing here about the Mosaic covenant being like a marriage contract. It was a covenant between God and Israel which included the 613 laws and commandments.

Soyeong said:

That is not what Jesus stated. A sum is inclusive of all of its parts and the reason why the greatest two commandments are the greatest two is because they are inclusive of all of the other commandments. For example, if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of God's other commandments. The greatest two commandments as much easier said than done, so thankfully God graciously gave us the rest of His commandments in order to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. Someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments would be indistinguishable from someone who was correctly living in obedience to the rest of God's other commandments because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow.

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When, we are going to disagree because that is what Jesus stated. The summary of the law into two changes the laws that are being summarized to the extend that they no longer apply. Keeping the Mosaic law was impossible. Only Jesus was able to keep it perfectly. The redeeming sacrifice of Christ fulfilled the terms of the old covenant fully.

“When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

He has “made obsolete” παλαιόω which translates to worn out, decay, declare obsolete. If the old is declared obsolete it means that all the terms of the old covenant are by default obsolete.

Soyeong said:

The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" and is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to Israel in the wilderness. In Ephesians 2:12-19, Gentiles were at one time separated from Christ, alienated from Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world, which is in accordance with Gentiles at one time not being doers of God's law, but through faith in Christ all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God, which is in accordance with Gentiles becoming doers of God's law.

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Actually no. Israel is no longer part of the tree. They were cut off in favor of the gentiles (Romans 11).

In addition the gentiles did attain righteousness by faith which is something that Israel could not do because the law is not of faith.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭30‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Israel is not the church.

Soyeong said:

In Psalms 119:29-30, it describes the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, so the salvation formula did not change. Salvation was never earned as the result of our obedience to God's law, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation.

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Agree. But the “doing” does not include the law for the Christian. The Christian by the grace of God through faith without works is made into Christ’s workmanship and does the works prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:8-10). The works of the law is not the works prepared in advance for the Christian to do.

Soyeong said:

Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by being a doer of God's law, which is what Titus 2:11-13 describes.

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“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

You should have included verse 14. Christ redeemed us from every lawless deed. No need for the law. Justification is a very powerful act. G.E Ladd once said that “the root idea in justification is the declaration of God, the righteous judge, that the man who believes in Christ, sinful though he may be, is righteous—is viewed as being righteous, because in Christ he has come into a righteous relationship with God.”

I’m in total agreement with Ladd. Even after being justified it is impossible to stop sinning hence repentance. Repentance should be a daily or very frequent activity. It is true that those with saving faith sin much less than before and are also working in partnership with the Holy Spirit in their lifelong sanctification.

The first problem with the law is that it does not justify. The second is that is not suggested as part of sanctification anywhere in the New Testament. Nowhere does it say follow the law. In fact Paul calls it weak (Rom. 8), call it a curse and explains what happens if one tries to follow it. Christ redeemed us from the law so no reason to return to what Christ redeemed us from.

“Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “the righteous one will live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭11‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Soyeong said:

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it. Similarly, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3), and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, which we are intrinsically required to follow. God's law is His instructions for equipping us to do every good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

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I have no desire to test drive a Ferrari. I would equate the law with an Edsel or something similar.

“All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Nothing here about following the law. All scripture is indeed necessary. The OT including the law is Christological in nature. It shows us the need for a savior so Paul is indeed right.

Soyeong said:

The Psalms are the OT book that is most quoted by the NT, so the authors of the NT certainly considered it to be applicable to the Christian church.

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As far as poetry and other teachings. I read them but I don’t use them for Christian doctrine. They do contain some great teachings.

Soyeong said:

According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the way to be cursed is by not continuing to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why everyone who relies on "works of the law" instead come under that curse. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the law with "works of the law" and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "work of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God, which is why it is not of faith.

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Yes. I’ve heard this argument before and it really does not hold water in light of the rest of the New Testament. Paul is indeed calling the law a curse literally and Christ literally redeemed us from the curse. Paul calls it weak in Rom. 8 and overall teaches that the Christian is not under the law and does not want to be under the law.

Soyeong said:

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to an alternative manner of living that is not in obedience to God.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust in God for salvation but in in His instructions, and the position that God is a giver us untrustworthy instructions that are not of faith is a position that denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 28, it describes the blessing of the law for lawfulness and the curse of the law for lawlessness, so being set free from the curse of the law is being set free from lawlessness in order to enjoy the blessing of lawfulness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Law of God but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness.

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Sorry but the rest of this wall of text is quite the repetition of the argument that I have already responded to. In short, following the law does not add to Jesus sacrifice. In fact it takes away from His sacrifice and power. Jesus sacrifice is plenty powerful to take care of each individual believer’s sins and testify before the Father that each one of His followers are righteous. The law for the Christian is finished but remains to the people of Israel.

Also the combination of your quoted post and my response exceeded the 1800 character limit so I cut some of your quoted post in order to post this reply. We can always go back to your original post if we have to.

fhansen said:

Seriously, you’ve immersed yourself into the catechisms, the councils, the theologians, the source materials, and not mainly the anti-Catholic propaganda?

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As I said. Bern there, done that. Read it all. I don’t do anti RCC propaganda as you should not do pro RCC propaganda.

Hentenza said:

I don’t agree. Every contract is for a number of terms for a distinct person or group. The Mosaic covenant was given to Moses to give to Israel. The covenant for the Christian church is the new covenant of blood depicted in Luke 22:20.

Nothing here about the Mosaic covenant being like a marriage contract. It was a covenant between God and Israel which included the 613 laws and commandments.

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There was never, in the entire history of the Bible, where the God of Abraham placed 613 Laws on the back of even ONE MAN who placed his Trust in Him. This internet scam has been adopted by "many" to promote the insidious, but popular falsehood that God gave men impossible to obey Laws, Lied to them by telling them the could obey Him, then killed them by the thousands when they didn't.

This internet scam uses a cleaver but deceitful tactic to deceive the simple. I'll give you an example.

In God's Commandments it is written;

Lev. 18: 6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

Then God goes on to define what HE means by "KIN" in verses 7-18. This is One Law, but the internet scam counts it as 19 separate Laws. This is done multiple times in this scam. This is a deception created by the prince of this world, to convince men that God's Laws are against them, and that God cannot be trusted to guide our footsteps because HE placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of men who trust Him.

It's like seeing that a road posted, "Speed limit 55 mph", which is the Law. Then saying, "though shall not drive 60 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 65 mph". Then saying, "though shall not drive 70 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 75 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 80 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 85 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 90 mph", and then telling people the Powers that made the Laws, placed 8 Laws on your neck.

There are God's instruction for women that are not for men. God's instruction for Priests, which are not for the common man.

But that is not shown by the "Many", who come in Christ's Name" who use this scam to deceive, as Jesus warns.

I fell for this deception once, until I read for myself and considered Jesus' warnings about being deceived by these very men, and considered what was actually written by God.

My hope that men might consider the warnings given by God through the Prophets, His son Jesus, and Paul, concerning the philosophies and doctrines promoted outside of the Holy Scriptures. Especially the really really evil ones, who promote to us that God Placed 613 Laws on the necks of men who placed their Truth in Him.

It's not true my friend. And it is important because the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches that a "little leaven, leavens the whole lump".

Hentenza said:

As I said. Bern there, done that. Read it all. I don’t do anti RCC propaganda as you should not do pro RCC propaganda.

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I don't have to do pro RCC propaganda; the teachings are clear enough and speak for themselves. And for those who've studied them objectively and sufficiently, they generally do the convincing on their own. I've done the same with Protestant sources: confessions, catechisms, Institutes, Bondage of the Will, etc.

Studyman said:

There was never, in the entire history of the Bible, where the God of Abraham placed 613 Laws on the back of even ONE MAN who placed his Trust in Him. This internet scam has been adopted by "many" to promote the insidious, but popular falsehood that God gave men impossible to obey Laws, Lied to them by telling them the could obey Him, then killed them by the thousands when they didn't.

This internet scam uses a cleaver but deceitful tactic to deceive the simple. I'll give you an example.

In God's Commandments it is written;

Lev. 18: 6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

Then God goes on to define what HE means by "KIN" in verses 7-18. This is One Law, but the internet scam counts it as 19 separate Laws. This is done multiple times in this scam. This is a deception created by the prince of this world, to convince men that God's Laws are against them, and that God cannot be trusted to guide our footsteps because HE placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of men who trust Him.

It's like seeing that a road posted, "Speed limit 55 mph", which is the Law. Then saying, "though shall not drive 60 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 65 mph". Then saying, "though shall not drive 70 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 75 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 80 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 85 mph", Then saying, "though shall not drive 90 mph", and then telling people the Powers that made the Laws, placed 8 Laws on your neck.

There are God's instruction for women that are not for men. God's instruction for Priests, which are not for the common man.

But that is not shown by the "Many", who come in Christ's Name" who use this scam to deceive, as Jesus warns.

I fell for this deception once, until I read for myself and considered Jesus' warnings about being deceived by these very men, and considered what was actually written by God.

My hope that men might consider the warnings given by God through the Prophets, His son Jesus, and Paul, concerning the philosophies and doctrines promoted outside of the Holy Scriptures. Especially the really really evil ones, who promote to us that God Placed 613 Laws on the necks of men who placed their Truth in Him.

It's not true my friend. And it is important because the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches that a "little leaven, leavens the whole lump".

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Maybe you should ask the Jews. Here is a list of the 613 laws including the book and verse for each one from a Jewish website.

“Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well.”

One truth teller , appointed and acknowledged by the Creator,
claimed
to be innocent, to have not broken any of the law...... this is truth.

Others un-named or named in Scripture, are called BLAMELESS by Yahweh..... go figure.

Hentenza said:

Maybe you should ask the Jews. Here is a list of the 613 laws including the book and verse for each one from a Jewish website.

“Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well.”

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

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Why would I seek a Jewish Website from a world that is at enmity with God, to define for me God's Laws, when I have the Oracles of God in my own home?

I dissected this scam 20 years ago, when I first saw it.

I gave examples of the deceitfulness used in this internet scam to make it seem God placed an impossible burden, "A Yoke of Bondage" as Many, "who come in Christ's Name promote, surely any man could see for themself that this is true, if they actually looked into it.

I posted an absolute Truth of Scripture that God never placed 613 Laws on the backs of EVEN ONE PERSON, not once in the entire Law and Prophets. No man can provide any examples of God engaging in such a manner, I have asked for even "Some" evidence that God placed 613 Laws on ANYONE's Back? Moses, Caleb, David, Zacharias, ANNA, Simeon, even Jesus. And according to Scriptures, God never placed 613 LAWS on anyone of them. This is a solid Truth that men cannot destroy or deny if the actual Word of God is the guiding factor.

I replied to this topic because it is an evil thing to say abut god. And I wanted to warn the brethren not to be tricked by it.

Do the study yourself my friend. If you are seeking truth, and not simply justification, I am confident you will find, as did I and many others, that God never placed 613 Laws on the backs of even ONE person.

My hope is that you will do the Study.

Done and done - the laws were not placed on the backs of anyone.
God's Instructions are entirely true, healthy, light to His people, and even (now) to (a few) gentiles , who seek Him to learn how they should live.

Aaron112 said:

One truth teller , appointed and acknowledged by the Creator,
claimed
to be innocent, to have not broken any of the law...... this is truth.

Others un-named or named in Scripture, are called BLAMELESS by Yahweh..... go figure.

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Is. 55: 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

The Righteous Judgment of God today, the 8th Day of the Feast. Go figure indeed.

Aaron112 said:

Done and done - the laws were not placed on the backs of anyone.
God's Instructions are entirely true, healthy, light to His people, and even (now) to (a few) gentiles , who seek Him to learn how they should live.

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Amen, a voluntary humility.

Studyman said:

Why would I seek a Jewish Website from a world that is at enmity with God, to define for me God's Laws, when I have the Oracles of God in my own home?

I dissected this scam 20 years ago, when I first saw it.

I gave examples of the deceitfulness used in this internet scam to make it seem God placed an impossible burden, "A Yoke of Bondage" as Many, "who come in Christ's Name promote, surely any man could see for themself that this is true, if they actually looked into it.

I posted an absolute Truth of Scripture that God never placed 613 Laws on the backs of EVEN ONE PERSON, not once in the entire Law and Prophets. No man can provide any examples of God engaging in such a manner, I have asked for even "Some" evidence that God placed 613 Laws on ANYONE's Back? Moses, Caleb, David, Zacharias, ANNA, Simeon, even Jesus. And according to Scriptures, God never placed 613 LAWS on anyone of them. This is a solid Truth that men cannot destroy or deny if the actual Word of God is the guiding factor.

I replied to this topic because it is an evil thing to say abut god. And I wanted to warn the brethren not to be tricked by it.

Do the study yourself my friend. If you are seeking truth, and not simply justification, I am confident you will find, as did I and many others, that God never placed 613 Laws on the backs of even ONE person.

My hope is that you will do the Study.

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It seems that the Jews, the actual recipients of the law, have no problem with the number. The Jewish website that I posted has each law and the book and verse where it is located for each one. But I’m neither here nor there. So out of curiosity how many Jewish laws do you think there actually are?

Hentenza said:

It seems that the Jews, the actual recipients of the law, have no problem with the number. The Jewish website that I posted has each law and the book and verse where it is located for each one. But I’m neither here nor there. So out of curiosity how many Jewish laws do you think there actually are?

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In the Torah there are ZERO "Jewish Laws". There are Laws of God.

SabbathBlessings said:

I deleted my post because I knew I would only receive an answer on personal philosophy as if that is the same as God’s word. Something Paul warned about Col 2:8

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Nothing I said was "personal philosophy." My arguments are from Scriptural interpretation, which is what we all do here. Your claim that your belief is "Scripture" whereas any opposing view is "not Scripture, but personal interpretation" is a tactic--not a reality.

SabbathBlessings said:

Thats fine you do not have to keep the commandments of God including the Sabbath despite Jesus and the apostles doing before/after the Cross.

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Yes, we do not keep the 10 Commandments as a subset of the entire Law, also known as the Old Covenant. If we do that, our human record of "sin" is preserved, and we are disqualified from Christ's redemption. If we wish to be forgiven and receive Eternal Life that only comes when we obey Christ's commandments under the New Covenant. And that does not include a commitment to extraneous requirements that were fulfilled only in Christ, including Sabbath Law.

The Moral Law, however, existed from the beginning, before the Law, and may also be called the Law of Conscience. However, not even that will bring Justification for Eternal Life if we do not execute our obedience through Christ.

SabbathBlessings said:

Luke 4:16 Luke 23:56 Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Act 15:21 Acts 18:4 Mat24:20 etc its just for Jews you claim, but God said it was made for man Mark2:27 and everyone who loves and wants to join themselves to Him Isa 56:6.

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The Law was indeed for the Jewish People alone.
Amos 3.2 “You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth."

The following passage indicates that the Sabbath was given on behalf of sinful Israel, who being "mortal human" were sinners whose works were unclean and prohibited from the Tree of Life.

Mark 2.27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus observed the Sabbath as an example for us, but not because he was subject to "the Law of Sin and Death." He also was Baptized not out of need to be cleansed from Sin, but as an example for us, who are Sinners.

Paul argued that we are not subject in the New Covenant to regulatory or ceremonial days under the Law. But he indicated we could observe days out of respect for the Jews, to "win the Jews" with respect.

But your personal interpretation rejects, ignores, or twists the following Scripture...

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

SabbathBlessings said:

I am not familiar with any passage that we are not to follow the example of Jesus.

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I have never said we don't follow the example of Jesus. On the contrary, that's what I've said we do under the New Covenant. If we follow his example of observing the Sabbath we do it not because Jesus was under the Law of Sin and Death, but rather, because he was setting an example for what the Jews were required to do at that time under the Law.

If we are truly to follow Jesus' example we will recognize that he was not truly under the Law, being sinless. And like Jesus we would encourage people to be obligated under the current Covenant--not the Law but the Covenant of Christ.

And if we set an example for others, like he did in Water Baptism, it may not be because we need to observe certain rituals, but only to respect those we wish to witness to, observing some of their cultural practices if they are not ungodly.

Some get confused over apparent references to Sabbath observance in the eschaton. For example...

Isa 66.23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord.

But it is very common in OT Prophecy for the Prophet to use OT terminology to describe NT realities. Certainly, he would not use language that seemed to be outside of the OT Covenant of Law while they system was still in play.

And so, the above passage would indicate the equivalent of OT realities--Every month and every week mankind will be subservient to God. It does not suggest Sabbath Law needs to be observed under the New Covenant.

On the contrary, Jer 31.32 suggests that the New Covenant will be different from the Sinai Covenant of Law. It will involve a change in law by which sin would never again bring Israel to non-compliance. And that Covenant would have to exceed the Mosaic Law, which recorded Israel's incapacity to inherit Eternal Life.

Studyman said:

In the Torah there are ZERO "Jewish Laws". There are Laws of God.

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That’s not what I asked. The laws of Moses, as they are usually called, were given ONLY to Israel. So in your opinion how many laws are included in the Law of Moses?

RandyPNW said:

It's difficult to explain "lawfulness" in the context of "fulfilling the Law." But when we follow Christ we are following a spirit of lawfulness.

We are not following 613 requirements of the Law of Moses, but we are recognizing in Jesus a spirit of love that represents the entire moral quality of the Law. We are following a holy Spirit that had previously manifested lawfulness under a Law that had applied a temporary form of redemption.

We continue to be devoted to a system of moral law. However, the part that indicated a temporary redemption is no longer necessary and is no longer active. Redemption is complete, while moral living continues. And we are informed about what that morality is both by the Gospel accounts of Jesus and by the knowledge of the kind of lawful system that he fulfilled.

As such, the Law of Moses may inform us as to what is "moral." But we are directed under the New Covenant system to obtain our obedience through the work of Christ and not through our own temporary work, which has been invalidated by the Law. Our work now "follows us" because of the mercy God has shown us through Christ. We now live through him, and not through the Law.

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What's your point? Are you trying to "save" me from antinomianism too?

Mercy Shown said:

Romans 3:20 declares, “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” Some interpreters have argued that Paul is speaking of two distinct laws: the ceremonial law, which could not justify, and the moral law, which continues to bind believers. This reading, however, is a later development in Christian history rather than Paul’s own intent.​

In the early church, figures like Irenaeus, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine typically read Paul’s reference to “the law” (nomos) as the Mosaic law in its entirety. They emphasized that the law reveals sin but does not bring righteousness, and they did not suggest that Paul was distinguishing between two different laws.

A more formal distinction emerged in medieval theology. Thomas Aquinas articulated a tripartite division of the Mosaic law: moral, ceremonial, and judicial. The moral law expressed timeless ethical principles, the ceremonial law governed Israel’s worship and sacrifices, and the judicial law regulated Israel’s civic life. Although Aquinas did not claim Paul himself made this division, his framework shaped subsequent readings of Romans.

During the Reformation, Martin Luther and John Calvin emphasized justification by faith apart from works of the law. To preserve the ongoing authority of the Ten Commandments while rejecting salvation by works, they leaned on the moral/ceremonial distinction. Calvin in particular stressed that the moral law still bound believers, while the ceremonial law had been fulfilled in Christ. This approach encouraged Protestants to interpret Romans 3:20 as if Paul were distinguishing between different kinds of law.

In the centuries that followed, Protestant confessions such as the Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) codified this division, and it became common for preachers and commentators to read Romans 3:20 through that lens. The two-law theory thus served as a theological tool in debates over antinomianism, allowing Christians to affirm both salvation by grace and the necessity of obedience.

Modern scholarship, however, has largely set aside the two-law framework as an anachronism. Studies of Second Temple Judaism have shown that Jews of Paul’s day viewed Torah as a unified covenant, not as divisible into moral and ceremonial parts. Scholars such as E.P. Sanders and proponents of the “New Perspective on Paul” argue that Paul’s concern was not with distinguishing kinds of laws but with showing that Torah as a whole cannot justify. For Paul, the law in its entirety reveals sin, but righteousness comes only through faith in Christ.

In sum, the theory that Paul spoke of two laws in Romans 3:20 reflects later theological developments, especially medieval and Reformation attempts to reconcile Paul’s teaching with the continuing role of God’s commands. While historically influential, it does not appear to be what Paul himself meant.

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and here is Rom 3:20. says. !!

# 1 THEREFORE //. DI0TI. , is. a Conjuncation.

# 2 BY //. EK. , is. a PREPOSTION

#. 3 THE DEEDS // ERGON

# 4. OF THE LAW //. NOMOS , in. the GENITIVE CASE , in. the SINGULAR. in. the NEUTER

# 5. THERE SHALL //. DIKAIOO. , in. the FUTURE TENSE , in. the PASSIVE VOICE , in. the INDICATIVE MOOD in. the SINGULAR

# 6 NO //. OU. , is a DISJUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE

# 7 FLESH. //. SARX. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE , in. the. SIGNULAR

#. 8 BE JUSTIFIED. //. DIKAOO. in. the FUTURE TEHSE. , in the. INDICATIVE MOOD. and this mood means you better believe it

in the SINGULAR

# 9. IN HIS ?? AUTOS. , is. a PERSONAL POSSESSEIVE PRONOUN , in. the GENITIVE CASE , in. the SIGNULAR

# 10 SIGHT //. ENOPION. is an. ADVERB

# 11. FOR // GAR , is. a CONJUNCATION

# 12 BY // DIA , is a CONJUNCATION

# 13 THE. LAW // NOMOS . in. the. GENITIVE CASE , in. the SIGNULAR

# 14. IS THE KNOWLEDGE // EPIGNOSIS. , in. the NOMINATIVE CASE , in. the SIGNULAR

# 15. OF SIN // HARARTIS. . in. the GENITIVE CASE , in. the SINGULAR

So what say you. ??

dan p