The Eucharist in the Early Church

RileyG · Jul 30, 2024

Daniel9v9 said:
Ah, yeah. The Didache Bible is something different from the Didache, which can be confusing because it's the same name. However, the word "didache" simply means "teaching", so it may be used in different contexts. The Didache Bible is a Roman Catholic catechetical Bible, but the Didache is one of the first Christian writings we have outside of the Bible.

I also own the Didache Bible which is a very beautiful Bible. I love the Douay-Rheimas, New American Bible, Orthodox Study Bible, Reformation Study Bible, among many others, but my favorite is The New Jerusalem Bible, which was favored by Mother Angelica.

Thanks for your knowledge!

RileyG · Jul 30, 2024

prodromos said:
The Real Presence — Church Fathers

www.churchfathers.org

Thanks for the resources!

FaithT · Jul 30, 2024

Deblee said:
How does it differ from other Bibles?

It‘s a Catholic Bible that includes a lot of the Catechism in it.

RileyG · Jul 30, 2024

FaithT said:
It‘s a Catholic Bible that includes a lot of the Catechism in it.

Yes! I also have it and it's very beautiful and informative

Deblee · Aug 3, 2024

Daniel9v9 said:
In addition to the above, it may be worth looking at the Didache. It's a fascinating text and a unique window into the early church!
I contend that it's very early, that it was written towards the end of what we can think of as the NT era, so it's very valuable for understanding what the early church believed about God's Word. It's more practical than it is doctrinal, but it contains an Agape-Eucharistic liturgy which, to my knowledge, is the first ever recorded.

I'm quite interested in the Didache, so I'd be glad to expand on any of this, but I can quickly mention that the Eucharist is referred to as "holy" in Didache 9:5, and in Didache 10:3 there's a distinction being made between regular food and drink and what's called "spiritual food and drink" which is connected to "eternal life". And this eternal life is "through Your Servant", which is Jesus (we can know this from the verse above which reads: "Jesus Your Servant").

There are some peculiarities with the liturgy, but it's clearly central to the church of the Didache.

Hello, Daniel -

I received my copy of the Didache. The main part of the book is taken up with a sort of guide book to the Didache by the author, Thomas O'Loughlin., who is or was a Professor of Historical Theology at the University of Nottingham. I was wondering if you knew anything about him, pro or con?

FaithT · Aug 3, 2024

RileyG said:
Yes! I also have it and it's very beautiful and informative

Yes it is. And I have so many Bibles, Catholic and Protestant that my Didache Bible was at the bottom of the drawer barely touched. I’m getting good use out of it now, though.

Daniel9v9 · Aug 3, 2024

Deblee said:
Hello, Daniel -

I received my copy of the Didache. The main part of the book is taken up with a sort of guide book to the Didache by the author, Thomas O'Loughlin., who is or was a Professor of Historical Theology at the University of Nottingham. I was wondering if you knew anything about him, pro or con?

Hey, great!

I'm sorry to say I'm not familiar with O'Loughlin. I had a quick look online and he's undoubtedly a serious scholar so I'm sure he's able to give a lot of insight, even if there are things you may not be sure about.

It's always helpful to consider what perspective the author is writing from, what kind of theological system they operate under. Even if we strive to be neutral, practically, what we believe does change how we think about things and how we interpret texts. I know this from my own life in that I think about things in a Lutheran way, in the same way a Pentecostal will think about things in a Pentecostal way, or a non-denominational will think about things in a non-denominational way etc.

So, I would be glad to be proven wrong, but I would anticipate a commentary that is at least Roman Catholic adjacent. In which case, that may show up in how he understands the Two Ways doctrine, the "sacrifice" that's mentioned in connection to the Eucharist, and the Pastoral Office, to mention a few.

Now, I know you already bought the book, so I hesitate to recommend this, but if you're looking for a good version of the Didache with less commentary, The Apostolic Fathers by Holmes is excellent! There you have a collection of the early writers, including the Didache, in good English, parallel with Greek, and with some brief but helpful introductions that don't have too many opinions or speculations.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on O'Loughlin's edition, though! And I'm always glad to talk about the Didache if you want to have a chat!

God bless!

FaithT · Aug 3, 2024

Daniel9v9 said:
Hey, great!

I'm sorry to say I'm not familiar with O'Loughlin. I had a quick look online and he's undoubtedly a serious scholar so I'm sure he's able to give a lot of insight, even if there are things you may not be sure about.

It's always helpful to consider what perspective the author is writing from, what kind of theological system they operate under. Even if we strive to be neutral, practically, what we believe does change how we think about things and how we interpret texts. I know this from my own life in that I think about things in a Lutheran way, in the same way a Pentecostal will think about things in a Pentecostal way, or a non-denominational will think about things in a non-denominational way etc.

So, I would be glad to be proven wrong, but I would anticipate a commentary that is at least Roman Catholic adjacent. In which case, that may show up in how he understands the Two Ways doctrine, the "sacrifice" that's mentioned in connection to the Eucharist, and the Pastoral Office, to mention a few.

Now, I know you already bought the book, so I hesitate to recommend this, but if you're looking for a good version of the Didache with less commentary, The Apostolic Fathers by Holmes is excellent! There you have a collection of the early writers, including the Didache, in good English, parallel with Greek, and with some brief but helpful introductions that don't have too many opinions or speculations.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on O'Loughlin's edition, though! And I'm always glad to talk about the Didache if you want to have a chat!

God bless!

In case you didn’t notice, I returned to Catholicism, but thanks for all the help you’ve given me.

Daniel9v9 · Aug 3, 2024

FaithT said:
In case you didn’t notice, I returned to Catholicism, but thanks for all the help you’ve given me.

Hey, no problem — Glad to help!

Deblee · Aug 3, 2024

Daniel9v9 said:
Hey, great!

I'm sorry to say I'm not familiar with O'Loughlin. I had a quick look online and he's undoubtedly a serious scholar so I'm sure he's able to give a lot of insight, even if there are things you may not be sure about.

It's always helpful to consider what perspective the author is writing from, what kind of theological system they operate under. Even if we strive to be neutral, practically, what we believe does change how we think about things and how we interpret texts. I know this from my own life in that I think about things in a Lutheran way, in the same way a Pentecostal will think about things in a Pentecostal way, or a non-denominational will think about things in a non-denominational way etc.

So, I would be glad to be proven wrong, but I would anticipate a commentary that is at least Roman Catholic adjacent. In which case, that may show up in how he understands the Two Ways doctrine, the "sacrifice" that's mentioned in connection to the Eucharist, and the Pastoral Office, to mention a few.

Now, I know you already bought the book, so I hesitate to recommend this, but if you're looking for a good version of the Didache with less commentary, The Apostolic Fathers by Holmes is excellent! There you have a collection of the early writers, including the Didache, in good English, parallel with Greek, and with some brief but helpful introductions that don't have too many opinions or speculations.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on O'Loughlin's edition, though! And I'm always glad to talk about the Didache if you want to have a chat!

God bless!

It sounds like you're saying O'Loughlin is Catholic. I wasn't sure, and that's one of the things I wanted to determine. You're so right about beliefs influencing perspective.

So far he seems fairly neutral in his take on things. He pointed out that the section on the Lord's Supper could be construed to bolster either the Catholic position or the Protestant position. But I've just begun reading the book. I'll let you know how it goes.

Daniel9v9 · Aug 4, 2024

Deblee said:
It sounds like you're saying O'Loughlin is Catholic. I wasn't sure, and that's one of the things I wanted to determine. You're so right about beliefs influencing perspective.

So far he seems fairly neutral in his take on things. He pointed out that the section on the Lord's Supper could be construed to bolster either the Catholic position or the Protestant position. But I've just begun reading the book. I'll let you know how it goes.

Ah, yeah, sorry, I forgot to mention that he appears to be a Roman Catholic Priest. I brought it up as I think people’s backgrounds are always good to consider when reading a commentary.

Thanks for keeping me informed! I appreciate it!

God bless!

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2024

Deblee said:
Prodomos-

Thank you so much! I feel like I've hit the motherlode! That is a wonderful resource. I've put it on my homescreen.

I was really hoping to find out what the early Christians, especially the fathers of the Church, believed concerning the Eucharist. From preponderance of quotes on that website, it certainly looks as if they held the view of the Catholic Church today.

Thank you for smoothing the path for me on this particular part of my spiritual journey. Bless you, brother, in Christ. Much appreciated!

Enh, they held the view shared by the Orthodox, Lutherans, the high church Anglicans and Roman Catholics, so Catholic in the sense of universal but not specifically Roman Catholic.

Meanwhile in the Roman Catholic Church sadly 69% of those who attend the Novus Ordo mass do not believe in the real presence, compared with only about 1% of those who attend the usus antiquor mass and other related traditional liturgies of the RCC.

The Liturgist · Aug 16, 2024

Daniel9v9 said:
Ah, yeah. The Didache Bible is something different from the Didache, which can be confusing because it's the same name. However, the word "didache" simply means "teaching", so it may be used in different contexts. The Didache Bible is a Roman Catholic catechetical Bible, but the Didache is one of the first Christian writings we have outside of the Bible.

Indeed, I wish they’d given it a different name. Of course its not as confusing as the name of certain countries in the Caucasian area (for instance, Georgia, no relation to the US state, was also historically known as Iberia, no relation to the peninsula containing Spain, Portugal, Andorra and Gibraltar, and as for Azerbaijan, it was historically Caucasian Albania, no relation to the Balkan country of the same name. And while the original Kingdom of Armenia is in the region, for a while the Armenians also ruled the Kingdom of Cilicia, which is why there are two Catholicoi plus a Patriarchate of Jerusalem and of Constantinople each presiding over autonomous portions of the Armenian church that are nonetheless in full communion. But there is a cultural and linguistic divide between those who speak Western Armenian and those who speak Eastern Armenian.

But all of the aforementioned churches (Armenian Apostolic, Georgian Orthodox) believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, as one would expect.

Valletta · Aug 16, 2024

The Liturgist said:
Meanwhile in the Roman Catholic Church sadly 69% of those who attend the Novus Ordo mass do not believe in the real presence, compared with only about 1% of those who attend the usus antiquor mass and other related traditional liturgies of the RCC.

My friend, I think you understandably got that one wrong. A previous poll had indicated most did not believe, a recent poll said 69% did believe.

The Liturgist · Wednesday at 4:01 PM

Valletta said:
My friend, I think you understandably got that one wrong. A previous poll had indicated most did not believe, a recent poll said 69% did believe.

Ah, well that’s good. But still, in the case of the Vetus Ordo you’re talking about a figure much closer to 100%, which is why I really strongly believe the RCC should just translate it into the vernacular and allow it to be celebrated in either Latin or the vernacular, along with various other traditional Western liturgies which should also be made more widely available. The Novus Ordo isn’t a bad liturgy, its just … the wording of the older one is so much more florid and poetic, its like the Byzantine Rite (which paradoxically was de-Latinized, particularly in the US, post Vatican II; St. Elias Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church conducts their services in the luxuriant style of the Sabaite-Studite typikon).

RileyG · Wednesday at 4:03 PM

Deblee said:
How does it differ from other Bibles?

It’s a Bible that is approved by the Catholic Church. I also own it, and about 50+ other bibles.

RileyG · Wednesday at 4:03 PM

Valletta said:
My friend, I think you understandably got that one wrong. A previous poll had indicated most did not believe, a recent poll said 69% did believe.

Wow! That’s a relief! Maybe we are starting to see a Eucharistic revival!

FaithT · 2025-10-09T19:55:43-0500

RileyG said:
It’s a Bible that is approved by the Catholic Church. I also own it, and about 50+ other bibles.

I thought I had a lot of Bibles! I have a wardrobe/dresser drawer full plus 2 or 3 on my bookshelf. You’ve got me beat.

RileyG · 2025-10-10T10:31:49-0500

FaithT said:
I thought I had a lot of Bibles! I have a wardrobe/dresser drawer full plus 2 or 3 on my bookshelf. You’ve got me beat.

That's pretty awesome!

The Eucharist in the Early Church

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