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Does reality pass the Turing test?

timewerx

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Since 'irrational humans' are part of what's being tested, it would be poor protocol to use them as part of the standard. Therefore the only standard left for me to test them against is me. Using myself as the standard, and allowing for a reasonable deviation therefrom, do people behave rationally?

The answer unfortunately, is no. The question is, why? Is the standard unrealistic? Quite possibly.

Hence the question of reality's objectivity remains unanswered, but the course of action seems fairly clear... when they suffer, cherish them as if they're real... when they err, forgive them as if they're not.

Ironically, even those we perceive to be the best and the brightest and smartest among us don't behave or even think rationally either.

Biased / programmed thinking and behavior is the biggest weakness of humanity. It makes us extremely susceptible and weak against external influences. Really makes us no different from animals or even insects, slave to our senses and feelings.

"Sentience" is also a poor test because it still uses a standard that serves as the foundation of human weaknesses.

"Consciousness" might be a better test but many would actually fail it in some scenarios.

This is probably why if superior alien species exist, they haven't formally introduced themselves to us yet, because if they are truly conscious / self-aware, we'd be like animals to them.
 
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The Liturgist

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To that end I often wondered whether a character in a video game such as 'Grand Theft Auto' would be able to tell, simply by the behavior of the characters around it, that the world in which it was living wasn't 'real'.

Not really a good case study, because the characters in most video games are not connected to sophisticated LLM AIs, but rather tend to have only special-purpose AIs and scripted behavior. Now I don’t want to bash video game AI development - during the AI Winter that lasted from 1987 to 2000, much of the AI development that happened was for video games and computer games - pathing AIs, AIs to control opponents, AIs to control the behavior of complex simulations in open ended educational simulation games (my favorite) like Sim City 2000, the Sims, SimFarm, SimIsle and so on (and other Sim games, many of which had fairly sophisticated logic, which resulted in one ridiculously dry attempt at a game simulating the healthcare sector, SimHealth), Rollercoaster Tycoon, Transport Tycoon, and other games of the city building type, and the related genre of turn based and real time strategy games like Civilization, Starcraft and so on. So that by the year 2000, when the need for improvements in search engines and various business applications sparked a renewal of interest, the video game community had been carrying the torch.

However, video game characters in games like GTA do not think; they do not engage in the GPT-type neural network cognition of LLMs like chatGPT 4o or chatGPT 5 Instant, nor do they engage in the more structured reasoning LLM approach of models like openAI o4, chatGPT 5 Thinking and so on.

So the question is, does reality pass the Turing test? Does it act like a freely evolving natural world, or does it act more like an purposely designed simulation?

Yes, reality passes the Turing test. If in doubt, pray to God.

For Christians, we experience reality comforted by the Holy Spirit, and taste reality in the most joyous and painful moments of life - in prayer, in the joy of the Eucharist, in the sorrow of grief and bereavement, the pain of physical suffering, the comfort of healing, the joy of helping others to heal through the practice of charity, and especially through love - love for our family, for our spouses, for our brethren, for our children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and godchildren, or for those who are monastics, for fellow monastics and spiritual children, and for the love of our fellow men (see charity).

I would suggest if you have any doubt about the nature of reality you volunteer to serve with a Christian charity in your area. This is one area where my Roman Catholic friends particularly excel; unfortunately we Orthodox just do not have in the US the same kind of infrastructure they have, except in parts of Alaska, Pennsylvania and New Jersey, although we are trying, for example, the Antiochians have the Order of St. Ignatius, which has among other things built housing for homeless teenagers in the Tijuana area, to shelter them during the rainy season, as many were perishing from exposure or drowning.

One Catholic charity group I particularly like that is very accessible to ordinary people is the Vincentians.

The Episcopalians also have some very good programs, albeit on a somewhat smaller scale, as do many other denominations. Indeed at some point I intend to conduct a survey of charitable operations by the major denominations in the US to see how they stack up in terms of the number of charities, the total amount of money spent, and the percentage of charity as a proportion of the overall activity of that denomination both financially and in terms of the time commitment of members relative to volunteers and employees engaged in other types of work under that denominational aegis.

But where such charities exist, they provide an immediate means of interacting with those who need help. Some denominations, like the Salvation Army, are really driven by charitable projects more than anything else.

But by loving those who are suffering, you transcend political issues and can taste the reality of the world by experiencing the reality of God through acting in what in Orthodoxy we would call synergy with His uncreated energies of love, grace and mercy. Even if you aren’t a Christian, you can still taste God in this manner. The Sikhs and certain other Far Eastern religions also engage in extensive charity; the Sikhs have a nice saying “Service to people is service to God.” The theology underlying the basis for that statement is somewhat different (although not to the same extent as Hinduism insofar as Sikhism was influenced in a monotheist direction by contact with Semitic and Persian monotheistic religions, primarily Islam, but also Christianity, Zoroastrianism and Judaism.

Thus almsgiving and charity have, since antiquity, been a universal means of catharsis by which those who feel isolated from reality are able to re-immerse themselves in the love of their fellow human beings and through that, in a sense of the divine, which is why relatively few religions eschew charity altogether, and those dubious religions are not particularly nice or worthwhile. Indeed even most forms of Communist religion such as Marxist-Leninism, Trotskyism and so on did on occasion manifest a charitable impulse, although due to the confused eschatological vision of communists, the charitable instinct was often suppressed in favor of the idea that the only way to help those who was suffering was through revolutionary acts of class struggle, an idea which reached its nadir in Maoism and Hoxhaism.
 
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The Liturgist

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How about, reality is "an artificial construct, having the appearance of objectivity without the physical manifestation thereof". See, simulation is easier.

That depends on what you are trying to simulate.

Also at a certain point, it ceases to matter.

This is my point: the layered argument made by my friend and fellow Orthodox Christian @Chesterton is elegant, and it points to the fundamental truth that this reality is not the fullness of the life of the World to Come.

However - it is real. Hence calling it a reality. It is the direct product of the uncreated creative energies of God having manifested themselves through the actions of the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, through whom all things are made, manifest in the Holy Spirt.

But this is high theology - what really matters is tasting reality. And the way to do that, regardless of whether one agrees with our beautiful Orthodox theology or subscribes to a different theological or philosophical understanding of the nature of reality, is to engage with your fellow men in love and charity - through participation in charitable works and almsgiving. Suffer to relieve suffering. Love others for the sake of loving them. If you do that - helping other people, particularly the more vulnerable such as children, the elderly, the sick and the suffering, you will taste reality in a personal, experiential way.

I would also note regarding the ideas of physics that we might be in a simulation; this is extreme speculation and it is not even really a hypothesis, since its not testable - on the whole, the concept is not falsifiable. Although in theory, some individual experiments might indicate whether the world being simulated is more or less likely, emphasis on the word might. I really don’t care, since if the world is virtual, virtual is good enough.
 
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Chesterton

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I could simply say that they appear to have a physical manifestation independent of an outside observer, but I'm going to augment that to include the fact that they appear to have an agency that they may not in fact have.

In other words, it doesn't matter if they're physically real or not. If they have agency, then they're real, if they don't, then what they appear to be is simply an illusion.
Reality's as real as it needs to be. I think it's something like this: :)

 
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partinobodycular

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Reality's as real as it needs to be. I think it's something like this: :)

Harking back to a previous a post, when the time comes, which seems to be rapidly approaching, that AI can pass the Turing test, or any test that we can devise, will you accept that it's conscious under the same premise... that its consciousness is as real as it needs to be? Will you grant it the right to vote.
 
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timewerx

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Not really a good case study, because the characters in most video games are not connected to sophisticated LLM AIs, but rather tend to have only special-purpose AIs and scripted behavior. Now I don’t want to bash video game AI development - during the AI Winter that lasted from 1987 to 2000, much of the AI development that happened was for video games and computer games - pathing AIs, AIs to control opponents, AIs to control the behavior of complex simulations in open ended educational simulation games (my favorite) like Sim City 2000, the Sims, SimFarm, SimIsle and so on (and other Sim games, many of which had fairly sophisticated logic, which resulted in one ridiculously dry attempt at a game simulating the healthcare sector, SimHealth), Rollercoaster Tycoon, Transport Tycoon, and other games of the city building type, and the related genre of turn based and real time strategy games like Civilization, Starcraft and so on. So that by the year 2000, when the need for improvements in search engines and various business applications sparked a renewal of interest, the video game community had been carrying the torch.

I think the AI for Battlefield 2 (2005) (AIX 2 mod) is fairly good at mass control of bots.

I modified one map for single player use (me with AI team vs all-AI enemy team) that seemingly heavily favors the enemy team. The win conditions are unchanged (default) where you need to capture and hold more bases than the enemy and if possible, capture them all.

There's a winning strategy that's very illogical (contradicts logic) for both friendly and enemy AI teams. There's no way for AI to figure this out because they're all unscripted. All bots are using stock/default pathing and unmodified. The strategy is all in my head yet for some unexplained reason, the AI seems to have figured out my devious plan. Ironically, the AI's winning strategy is delay capturing our base and this contradicts AI logic but does it anyway and wins 10x in a row!

Perhaps, it all random but have surprisingly caught me off guard so many times. I think individual bots react off each other resulting in fairly organic and unpredictable collective behavior.
 
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Chesterton

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Harking back to a previous a post, when the time comes, which seems to be rapidly approaching, that AI can pass the Turing test, or any test that we can devise, will you accept that it's conscious under the same premise... that its consciousness is as real as it needs to be? Will you grant it the right to vote.
Firstly, the movie clip I posted did not indicate that consciousness is as real as it needs to be. It indicated that external reality, as perceived by consciousness, is as real as it needs to be. Consciousness is separate. It's the judge and jury doing the perceiving.

Anyway, whenever I say I have free will, atheist types respond with "no, you only experience the appearance of free will". If I say "the universe and life certainly look like they were designed", they say "no, they only have the appearance of design". So I say, yes, AI may come to have the appearance of consciousness.

Would I let it vote? Only if Elon Musk selects the team who designs it.
 
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AV1611VET

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Will you grant it the right to vote.

If it has a valid driver's license and tenure, and is at least 18 years old per the 26th Amendment to the Constitution ...
 
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timewerx

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Harking back to a previous a post, when the time comes, which seems to be rapidly approaching, that AI can pass the Turing test, or any test that we can devise, will you accept that it's conscious under the same premise... that its consciousness is as real as it needs to be? Will you grant it the right to vote.

I don't think the Turing Test is a good test for consciousness.

There are situations that even people thinks and behaves like programmed entities and this means even programmed responses can pass the Turing Test if programmed responses are not happening most of the time.
 
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partinobodycular

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Real or illusion as in concrete or simulation. In the end it's irrelevant: if we do live in a simulation, it's real to us.

Personally, I don't think that it's irrelevant at all. I think that it's much, much, much better to live life as if it's a simulation, rather than living it as if it's real.

Consider a tv drama series. You react to it quite differently knowing that it isn't real, and that the story in it is scripted. Yet you can still become quite attached to the characters. Admiring some and despising others. But at the end of the day you know that it's just a story, and so you can detach yourself from the deep emotional and psychological trauma that comes with being trapped in such a callous world.

Now think of life the same way. What if people really aren't that crazy? Or violent? Or selfish? Or irrational? Or immoral? What if it's just a story? And what if they're all just characters in a reality that isn't real? It's then so much easier to forgive them for their faults, and to accept them in spite of their sins. A truly amazing story is one that draws you in, and makes you love, and hate, and learn, and grow. It's not just sunshine and roses... it's life. With heroes, and villains, and hardships, and hopes.

Live life as if it's a story, for that may be all that it is. But even a story can be worth living.
 
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AV1611VET

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Now think of life the same way. What if people really aren't that crazy? Or violent? Or selfish? Or irrational? Or immoral? What if it's just a story? And what if they're all just characters in a reality that isn't real? It's then so much easier to forgive them for their faults, and to accept them in spite of their sins. A truly amazing story is one that draws you in, and makes you love, and hate, and learn, and grow. It's not just sunshine and roses... it's life. With heroes, and villains, and hardships, and hopes.

Methinks someone has been spending too much time on the holodeck.
 
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