The law, the commandments, and Christians.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

It is the Spirit of God who is our internal moral compass. He directly influences us away from the lusts of the flesh by expressing to us His desires for what we should think and do (Gal 5:17). Walking as He infuences us to walk is the only way to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16).

When we received God's Spirit by faith, His entry into our hearts created a new being (a spiriual being) that did not exist before. That new creature is truly righteous and holy (Eph 4:24) because it is joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). It is because of His presence and our oneness with Him that we love God with all our hearts and love our neighbors as ourselves. His presence and our oneness with Him is the reason that all the law's requirements for righteousness are fulfilled (Rom 8:4).

Now that we have become new creatures in Christ with new hearts, and now that we have Him as our internal leader and guide, we do not look to the law the same way we did when we were lost. When we were lost, the law condemed us to hell. It taught us that everyone is a sinner (Rom 3:23) and that the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). It convinced us that every sin counts against us (Gal 3:10) and that breaking one commandment makes us guilty of all (Jas 2:10). The law could only condemn us because it had no way to bring life (Gal 3:21) and it had no way to bring about righteousness (Ga 2:21).

Thankfully, God did the thing for us that the law could not do. He sent His Son to die for our sins, and through our faith in Him we gained life (His life) and righteousness (His righteousness) through union with Him...

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Ro 8:3–4)​

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Yes, the law’s requirements are right and still must be fulfilled (Rom 8:4), as the law is right, holy, and good (Rom 7) but, under the new covenant, this can finally be accomplished, the right way, God’s way, by the love poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5) by and with whom we can “put to death the deeds of the flesh” (Rom 8:12-14). This is how God puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts as we become His people (Jer 31:33). And we become His people, now grafted into the Vine (John 15:5), by faith.

IOW, “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) is the basis of the new covenant. That need, for union with God, is what we’re here to learn of so we’re free from and no longer make Adam’s unjust and destructive mistake, of thinking we don’t need Him.

Xeno.of.athens said:

What can possibly motivate you to want to be under the Law as were the Jews of Jesus' time? Surely it was not possible for them to obey the LAW so how do you think that you will obey it?

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Yes, we must to want and strive to obey them while acknowledging that this can only be done by the power of God as we enter communion with Him, and remain in Him.

Bob Crowley said:

If it weren't for the Decalogue we wouldn't know what right and wrong were.

Christ fulfilled the law in the sense of taking the penalty for transgressions - but those basic moral commandments still stand.

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Yes! They still stand, while now knowing that we can only do them to the extent that we’re in Christ, and remain in Him.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

Xeno.of.athens said:

What can possibly motivate you to want to be under the Law as were the Jews of Jesus' time?

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God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and are obligated to refrain from doing what He has revealed to be sin regardless of whether we want to be, but even if were not under His law and had no obligation to refrain from sin, then I think that most people would jump at the opportunity to get to come under a set instructions that they believed is accurately described in these verses:

(Psalms 19:7-11)
The law of the Lord is perfect,
reviving the soul;
the testimony of the Lord is sure,
making wise the simple;
8 the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
9 the fear of the Lord is clean,
enduring forever;
the rules of the Lord are true,
and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.
11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of obeying God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying, so a big part of what led to me shifting how I viewed obedience to God's law was realizing that my view of obeying it did not align with the Psalms in spite of me affirming that the Psalms are Scripture, so I realized that if I was going to continue to believe that the Psalms are Scripture, then I needed to also believe that they accurately express a correct view of obeying it and that I therefore needed to change my view to match the Psalms. Moreover, the NT authors consider the Psalms to be Scripture, so they should be interpreted in light of the fact that they were in complete agreement with the Psalms, especially because Paul also said that he delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22).

Some other motivations for wanting to be under God's law is that it is the way to love Him, it is the way to have faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live, it is the way to know/have an intimate relationship with Him, it is the way to believe in Him, it is the way to glorify Him, it is the way to testify about Him, it is the way that He is giving us His gift of saving us from not being a doer of it, it is the way to experience the gift of eternal life, it is the way to experience His gift of righteousness, it is the way to enter the Kingdom of Heaven in accordance with the Gospel, it is the way to be blessed, and it is the way to restore the world.

Xeno.of.athens said:

Surely it was not possible for them to obey the LAW so how do you think that you will obey it?

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In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience to it brings death and a curse, so choose life! Choosing life is a fantastic motivation.

Soyeong said:

God is sovereign, so we are all under His law

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To be "under the law" is to constrained to obedience by one's own power=obedience by the Letter. To be "under grace" is to be obedient by the power of God= obedience by the Spirit. which results as we enter union with Him via faith. The old covenant is still about man being on his own and proving his "rigtheousness" accordingly while the new covenant is about man being reconciled with God first of all, and then being enabled to live a life accordingly, righteously, consistent with being a child of His. Some think that being under grace means freedom from obligation to obey the law.

fhansen said:

Yes

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The things that follow have nothing to do with what I said, so why did you say "Yes"?

fhansen said:

, the law’s requirements are right and still must be fulfilled (Rom 8:4), as the law is right, holy, and good (Rom 7) but, under the new covenant, this can finally be accomplished, the right way, God’s way, by the love poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5) by and with whom we can “put to death the deeds of the flesh” (Rom 8:12-14). This is how God puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts as we become His people (Jer 31:33). And we become His people, now grafted into the Vine (John 15:5), by faith.

IOW, “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) is the basis of the new covenant. That need, for union with God, is what we’re here to learn of so we’re free from and no longer make Adam’s unjust and destructive mistake, of thinking we don’t need Him.

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fhansen said:

To be "under the law" is to constrained to obedience by one's own power=obedience by the Letter. To be "under grace" is to be obedient by the power of God= obedience by the Spirit. which results as we enter union with Him via faith. The old covenant is still about man being on his own and proving his "rigtheousness" accordingly while the new covenant is about man being reconciled with God first of all, and then being enabled to live a life accordingly, righteously, consistent with being a child of His.

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Am I right to read these statements as saying you believe union with God is in the mind? Why would you not see union with God as being spiritual and that being joined with Him makes us one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17)?

ARBITER01 said:

If you love Jesus you keep "His" commandments, not the commandments of the law of moses.

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You have neglected to give any reason to think that that the commands of Christ are not in complete accordance with the Law of Moses, especially considering that he said that man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so do you think that he gave commands that were not in accordance with what he practiced and that he hypocritically took the position that we should only do as he said but not as he did?

ARBITER01 said:

End of story. Either you love Him or you don't.

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The way to love the Father is by being a doer of His character traits in obedience to the Law of Moses, which is exactly the same as the way to love the Son, who is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3).

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

The things that follow have nothing to do with what I said, so why did you say "Yes"?

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Because it was all correct, and consistent with the historic Christian faith as well. We can fulfill the "righteous requirements of the law" but only by virtue of being united with Him. Now, if I read between the lines I might think you were speaking of a sort of vicarious fulfillment only, but, if not, then your words and the verses offered work well as they stand.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

Am I right to read these statements as saying you believe union with God is in the mind? Why would you not see union with God as being spiritual and that being joined with Him makes us one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17)?

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IDK why you might read them that way; I have no reason to think union with God is strictly in the mind.

fhansen said:

To be "under the law" is to constrained to obedience by one's own power=obedience by the Letter. To be "under grace" is to be obedient by the power of God= obedience by the Spirit. which results as we enter union with Him via faith. The old covenant is still about man being on his own and proving his "rigtheousness" accordingly while the new covenant is about man being reconciled with God first of all, and then being enabled to live a life accordingly, righteously, consistent with being a child of His. Some think that being under grace means freedom from obligation to obey the law.

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To rely on our own power does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that we can rely on our own power by obediently relying on God’s instructions. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by obediently relying on His instructions. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this is what it means to be under grace, this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, and it is incorrect to view grace and faith as not being values under the Mosaic Covenant. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, so the people in the Bible wanted God to be gracious to the by teaching them to obey the Mosaic Law while some people today want God to be gracious to them instead of teaching them to obey it, and thus they completely misunderstand what it means to be under grace.

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous under the Mosaic Covenant. In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn’t say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God is proved by our own power, but rather the one way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. Character traits are not earned as the result of our works but rather they are embodied through our works, so the Mosaic Law was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even though perfect obedience, but rather it was given as instructions for how to be a doer of works that embody righteousness. The only way to attain a character trait is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to have a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait through faith. So we are declared righteous through faith apart from works, but it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works, which is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Mosaic Law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

Soyeong said:

To rely on our own power does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that we can rely on our own power by obediently relying on God’s instructions.

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A person of faith certainly must desire to fulfill the law but Jesus railed against law-abiders who obeyed for other reasons, such as the Pharisees who He called whitewashed tombs, clean on the outside while filthy on the inside in Matt 23, or like Paul in Phil 3 calling the righteousness he excelled at as a Pharisee garbage. Grace must precede and accompany and compel everything regarding this matter.

Otherwise, what do you consider the difference between the old and new covenants to be? What did Jesus accomplish? What is reconciliation between man and God all about? Why was Paul so excited about the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith, not the law, in Phil 3:9?

fhansen said:

Because it was all correct, and consistent with the historic Christian faith as well. We can fulfill the "righteous requirements of the law" but only by virtue of being united with Him. Now, if I read between the lines I might think you were speaking of a sort of vicarious fulfillment only, but, if not, then your words and the verses offered work well as they stand.

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No, it is not vicarious.


These verses say that the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled (passive voice) in us (not by us). And "us" is defined as those "who walk according to the Spirit". That these verses are speaking of a class of people in whom the requirements are fulfilled (and not their deeds) is magnified by the class distinctions that preceed these verses and those follow them:

• "There is therefore now now condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Ro 8:1),
• "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Ro 8:2),
• "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit" (Ro 8:5),
• "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Ro 8:6),
• "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Ro 8:7),
• "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Ro 8:8),
• "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Ro 8:9),
• "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Ro 8:10),
• "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (Ro 8:13),
• "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Ro 8:14), and
• 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Ro 8:15–17).

These things point to a spiritual reality. Those who have Jesus Christ living in their hearts are right with God, are being led by God, and are Joint heirs with Christ. This reality is theirs because of the transformation that took place inside them that made them a new creation upon receiving Christ. You would have a better chance of understanding this if you would just accept the idea that the new man "was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24).

fhansen said:

IDK why you might read them that way; I have no reason to think union with God is strictly in the mind.

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I got the idea from your statement:

Since you reject the idea of inherent righteousness existing in the spirit created by Spiritual birth, it seems obvious that you are not speaking of us being one spirit with the Lord due to being joined to Him (1 Cor 6:17). So, when you say being under grace means to be obedient by the power of the Spirit "as we enter union with Him", I assumed it meant that you were saying our union with Him is another way of saying we agree to walk as He leads. In other word's our union with Him is an agreement to live as He wishes.

But I could be wong about this. Maybe you could explain what you think our union with Christ means.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

No, it is not vicarious.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that ("ἵνα") the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled (passive voice - subjunctive mood with ἵνα expresses purpose) in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Ro 8:3–4)​

These verses say that the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled (passive voice) in us (not by us). And "us" is defined as those "who walk according to the Spirit". That these verses are speaking of a class of people in whom the requirements are fulfilled (and not their deeds) is magnified by the class distinctions that preceed these verses and those follow them:

• "There is therefore now now condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Ro 8:1),
• "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" (Ro 8:2),
• "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit" (Ro 8:5),
• "For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Ro 8:6),
• "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." (Ro 8:7),
• "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Ro 8:8),
• "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (Ro 8:9),
• "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Ro 8:10),
• "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (Ro 8:13),
• "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." (Ro 8:14), and
• 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. (Ro 8:15–17).

These things point to a spiritual reality. Those who have Jesus Christ living in their hearts are right with God, are being led by God, and are Joint heirs with Christ. This reality is theirs because of the transformation that took place inside them that made them a new creation upon receiving Christ. You would have a better chance of understanding this if you would just accept the idea that the new man "was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24).

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We know that that the requirement is not fuilfilled by us but in and through us by the Holy Spirit as we cooperate with Him. So how does this play out, and what, exactly, does this righteousness look like?

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

That's our spiritual union with God, or one aspect of it in any case

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

But I could be wong about this. Maybe you could explain what you think our union with Christ means.

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Union with Christ is union with God, the reverse of the alienation from Him intiated by Adam. This is a union/communion/fellowship/relationship that man was made for, that fulfills the very purpose of his existence.

fhansen said:

We know that that the requirement is not fuilfilled by us but in and through us by the Holy Spirit as we cooperate with Him. So how does this play out, and what, exactly, does this righteousness look like?

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

That's our spiritual union with God.

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fhansen said:

Union with Christ is union with God, the reverse of the alienation from Him intiated by Adam. This is a union/communion/fellowship/relationship that man was made for, that fulfills the very purpose of his existence.

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I think "union/communion/fellowship/relationship" are all related in that the final three follow from the first. Jesus said,


I think this speaks to what it is meant by 1 Corinthians 6:17 - "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him".

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

I think "union/communion/fellowship/relationship" are all related in that the final three follow from the first. Jesus said,

22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (Jn 17:22–23)​

I think this speaks to what it is meant by 1 Corinthians 6:17 - "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him".

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Can't and won't disagree with that as far as I can see-darn. JK