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Are infants guilty because of Adam's sin?

Clare73

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Spiritual death is the result of sin. Physical death is natural, since mankind was barred from the tree of life. Don't get physical and spiritual death mixed up. Paul is talking about spiritual death in this whole argument from ch. 3 to 8. Infants who die in infancy are welcome in heaven because they have not corrupted themselves, thus they are innocent. Again, the "imputed sin" argument is unconvincing.
"Convincing" is not the criteria for God's truth in Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19, where
all those of Adam are condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:14, 17), just as
all those of Christ are redeemed by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them (Ro 5:18-19).
Ok, so you don't interpret it literally. You think it's figurative language. That's your prerogative. But again, it's an argument based on the premise of imputed sin. I'm trying to find out what Paul's meaning is, as opposed to what people think he meant.
Study Ro 5:14, 17 (which imputed sin, v.17, is the pattern, v.14, for the imputed righteousness of the one to come; i.e., Jesus of Nazareth).
Those that are by nature objects of God's wrath are those walking according to the sons of disobedience.
It is our nature (with which we are born) that makes us "objects of God's wrath" (Eph 2:3); i.e., "by nature, objects of wrath."
All the sons of Adam are sons of disobedience through their inherited fallen sinful nature.
How can an infant who has not even had a chance to commit sin be included in this wrath?
Why would an infant rattlesnake in my backyard where my children play, which snake doesn't even have rattlers yet, be killed by me?
Again, the "imputed sin" argument requires that you assume it to be true. Honestly, I don't really want to continue a debate with you, since you aren't using accepted methods of exegesis. And don't say I'm not either, because I'm the one asking the question - I WANT to believe, but can't, if the argument is not convincing.
It's not God's job to convince you, it's your job to believe God in his word written.
And that belief/faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3).
 
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tdidymas

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By being redeemed.




"It sounds like" and "I don't get it" are not logical criticisms but rather autobiographical statements, telling us something about you. The only thing I can really say is, "I'm sorry to hear that."

Again, mankind is corporately guilty by imputation because Adam was our federal head in covenant relationship to God—and infants are a part of mankind, as are children, teenagers, young adults, the elderly, etc. And then, on top of being sinners, we are held personally guilty for our sins (transgressions), whether by commission (doing what we ought not) or omission (failing to do what we ought).

A popular way of expressing this view: "We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners."

And Adam is why we are sinners.




That is not the difference. "Corporately" means all mankind in Adam, condemned by imputation (original sin); "individually" means each man in himself, condemned by transgressions (actual sins).

We sin (personal guilt) because we are sinners (corporate guilt).

(Notable consideration: The idea that "we are sinners because we sin" is the Pelagian heresy.)




I never denied a connection between sin and our bodies. Our sinful corruption is a product of our sinful condition—and, again, Adam is why we are sinners.




Perhaps you don't see it because nobody proposed it.




I don't think your view can be maintained in the larger context of this epistle. Paul did not consider himself spiritually alive until the law; rather, he wasn't aware of his spiritual death until the law—for it exposes and condemns what is already there (Rom. 5:13-14). This fits with the broader argument that the law functions to bring knowledge of sin (3:20; 7:7).




That is a separate question. If we assume federal headship in covenant theology for the sake of argument, mankind's corporate guilt and condemnation logically follows (and infants are a part of mankind). I would remind you that the opening post questioned whether infants are included in this corporate guilt and condemnation.

It sounds like you now want to challenge that premise: "What if we don't assume that for the sake of argument? Does scripture actually teach this doctrine?" That is a great question but it's a separate one from the question being asked in this thread.

(The short answer is, "Yes, it does.")




Those regard personal sin, not corporate sin (i.e., category error). I will concede that infants have not committed any personal sins.



That is what Reformed theology teaches. However, it is not only corruption but also condemnation that we inherit from Adam—just as in Christ we receive not only a new nature but also justification. "Condemnation for all people came through one transgression," Paul said (Rom. 5:16-18).
I was trying to explain my thoughts on how your argument was not convincing having to do with corporate guilt. I still don't see scripture teaching that. It appears to me that your interpretation of those verses are assuming a corporate guilt idea, rather than extracting the doctrine from the scripture. So, I'm just saying I'm not convinced.

But if you admit that infants haven't sinned, then you're essentially admitting they are innocent, because that's the definition of innocence - not sinned and having no knowledge of sin. Again, "corporate guilt" idea seems detached, sounds like something propping up the imputed sin idea. While reading through your interpretation I was thinking that it sounds like those verses you claim are teaching corporate guilt can easily be interpreted as having a sinful nature, which is a completely different issue in my mind.
 
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tdidymas

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"Convincing" is not the criteria for God's truth in Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19, where
all those of Adam are condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:14, 17), just as
all those of Christ are redeemed by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them (Ro 5:18-19).
If you're not trying to convince me, then why the hubbub?
Study Ro 5:14, 17 (which imputed sin, v.17, is the pattern, v.14, for the imputed righteousness of the one to come; i.e., Jesus of Nazareth).
The righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer. The sin of Adam is not imputed to mankind. It's not symmetrical. The sin imputed to people are the actual sins they commit, which they are culpable for. So this makes infants, having initially a dormant sin nature, innocent until they commit sin. There are plenty of scriptures that back this up.
It is our nature (with which we are born) that makes us "objects of God's wrath" (Eph 2:3); i.e., "by nature, objects of wrath."
All the sons of Adam are sons of disobedience through their inherited fallen sinful nature.
People are sons of disobedience when they practice it. Eph. 2 is talking about people "walking according to the course of the world" who are already sinners. It doesn't include infants which are innocent, since they have not yet sinned.
Why would an infant rattlesnake in my backyard where my children play, which snake doesn't even have rattlers yet, be killed by me?

It's not God's job to convince you, it's your job to believe God in his word written.
And that belief/faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3).
I believe God's word, not your assertions. Your assertions are not God's word. Your rattlesnake analogy is a straw man. Infants don't bite and poison people because it's not in their nature as an infant. Since the sin nature is still dormant in them until they start sinning, they remain innocent. So your dogma about imputed sin just doesn't cut the mustard.
 
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