Awake Or Asleep?

CoreyD said:

Are you saying that "sleep is just a metaphor" for being present with the Lord?
Did Jesus say that? Or did Jesus say sleep is equivalent to death?

I read,
[Jesus] said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,"

Did you read that also?
You did not read something else, did you?
Did all the scriptures quoted not refer to those who died?

You would like me to believe the scriptures, over what you, or others say, don't you?

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Samuel was pretty grumpy when God had him come up to speak to Saul, and I don't think it was because he hadn't had his coffee yet.

CoreyD said:

You aren't saying that the scriptures in the OP are not truthful, so I am not sure what you are saying.
You seem to be making an argument against, but to do so, would be to deny what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said.
Unless you can explain how what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said, do not mean what they said.

Are you saying the little girl, Lazarus, Stephen, and the Saints were not, or are not sleeping in death?

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I did as good a job of explaining it nearly a year ago, in post #20 in this thread, as I can now —I have not much improved with age, though I have gotten a bit more grumpy.

Let me try to explain it like this, now: Do you think it impossible, that even though WE experience a passage of time, and more time to come, before the resurrection unto life eternal, that when death happens to us, that we will have no experience of time passage, and, even, that it is impossible for us to find ourselves arriving to see also Samuel, Jacob, Noah, Adam (even Elijah who did not die) arriving? That's just a question asked also from our point-of-view to get the point across I'm trying to make. Like it, Moses and Elijah, transfigured on the mountain with Jesus, is time-passage relevant to them being there? I'm not asking for what came first, but what God did, and who they are, to God.

My real question is this: Does God, (whose point-of-view is the only reality), see this the way we do? I'm not saying, "Can he see it the way we do?" —I'm asking, "Does he...?"

We are so entrenched into this experience of that which God says is hardly a vapor, compared to the reality of what is to come, that we don't even know how to talk about it except in our terms.

Not to be too cryptic, but ask yourself, What is existence? Is not what God spoke into being, the saved and unsaved, the Bride of Christ and the Reprobate, more real than the time it took, and our viewpoint of how we get there?

walter45 said:

King David died a long time ago, and is in God's memory and will be resurrected in the future on judgment day on the last day, he did not ascend to heaven. -Mark 12:27, Acts 2:34

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From OUR point of view, yes.

I feel we would get a more complete understanding of what The Bible intended for us to understand when we include all the scriptures we can find on that Bible topic.

Someone please give me a scripture that seems to explain all people automatically after death get everlasting life in heaven or hell?

CoreyD said:

Thank you for sharing, StudyMan.
I can see that you really study.
I am happy to hear yo say "death from which there is no return", because that is exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said "destroy both body and soul in Gehenna" - the Greek word many translations has inappropriately mistranslated "hell". So that now "hell" is cast into "hell" Revelation 20:14. How confusing.

I also like that you recognize that those who are unrighteous are resurrected to judgment.
Some mistakenly think that God is going to raise up people, only to tell them "be gone for what you have done" or something to that effect, and then cast them into a fiery lake that burns forever, but I can't blame them for believing such misleading ideas, since I remember being taught this from the time I could walk, talk, and understand what a person was saying.

I learned from the Bible though, sometime in my mid twenties, that this judgment is not like going before a judge, who bangs his hammer on the table and says in a loud firm voice, "guilty". Then the officers standing next to the person, grabs both arms and carry them off to their fate.
Rather, this judgment is a lengthy period... the Bible says 1,000 years, in which the risen unrighteous have the opportunity to learn the Christ, and be judged based on their deeds.

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It's a great study, and I am glad you understand that this world's religions or the voices that promote them, have promoted falsehoods abut god since the serpent in the garden. We are all placed in this world in which this "other voice" exists.

In my study there are two resurrections 1000 years apart. There are those who God used as examples for us, as Paul says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.", that will be raised and given another chance, not being used as examples, and they will be taught by the Faithful in Christ who are raised, judged and become Kings and Priests during this time. (Ez. 37)

These Examples will get their fair shot at Salvation in the 1000 year period spoken of. But those who were not used by God as examples, who simply rejected the "Way of the Lord", like the Pharisees and "Christians" in Matt. 7, will be raised in the 2nd resurrection, unto destruction. This is why, in my understanding, that the Rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus, but didn't realize that a 1000 years had passed between the time they were raised, and he was raised. I think this is, at least in part, the Gulf that was between them.

And there is no indication that the Rich man was going to be given another chance. Just as in Matt. 7, I don't think there is any coming back for those men, who had seen their judgment, and was trying to make a case for themselves, "Jesus, don't you know who we are? We built massive religious businesses and hospitals etc., all in your name?"

I do believe God gives every human the same choice, "Life or Death" and will raise those who were never given this choice, to have their fair trial of their faith, in the 1000 year period. But "many" were ALREADY GIVEN this chance since Adam and Eve to repent and turn to Him. I don't believe we, who have the Oracles of God in our own homes, will receive Mercy if we reject Him in our lives. As Jesus said, these many who "work iniquity" even while calling Jesus Lord, Lord, already have their reward in this life.

CoreyD said:

This thread takes a look at the scriptures which sheds light on that.
Oops. I just realized I forgot to put the link in the post to @walter45. Sorry about that, buddy.

Many people do not understand that the soul is the person, being, or life of that being, and so, when Jesus said love God with your whole soul, they miss the point, because they think man has some living being inside of him, that never dies.

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I agree, they either ignore or don't believe that Adam and Eve were not allowed to eat of the Tree of Life, certainly not in the first 3 chapters of the Bible. The same thing is mentioned again in the end of the Bible.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that "they may have right" to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

He preserves an essence or a record of us, but if HE doesn't return and renew our spirit, we will never even know that we existed.

CoreyD said:

However, this is what the churches have been teaching for centuries... contrary to what the scriptures teach. As the scriptures show, the soul does die. Ezekiel 18:4
It is not put in hell where it's tormented in flames, and then taken out to be cast into another hell with even more intense flames... which never die.

So much confusion is being taught to the masses of people.
Thanks again for sharing these scriptures, and your thoughts along with them.

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Absolutely, the mother of what we know as "Christianity" created many philosophies and traditions contrary to the truth of God, and we were placed in this world where these voices exist. No different that Eve placed by God in the same world, with the same voice that "Professes to know God".

How refreshing it is to fellowship with someone who has harkened to the warnings of the Lord's Christ and the Prophets concerning whose words to live by.

CoreyD said:

It's so refreshing having a conversation with someone who understands that there are people who are unrighteous... that is, neither righteous nor wicked, but as described at Jonah 4:11, "people that do not know their right hand from their left". In other words, as we would say, ignorant. ...and that God gives every human who were never given this choice the chance to have their fair trial of their faith, in the 1000 year period. Praise Jah!

You said, these unrighteous ones "will be taught by the Faithful in Christ who are raised, judged and become Kings and Priests during this time."
I'm doing a little Mathematics here, although that wasn't one of my best subjects , so maybe you can help me out here, because although you mentioned, you believe there are two (2) resurrection, in your understanding, I counted three (3).
So, I will accept correction.

The kings and priest that rule during the 1,000 years get the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4, 6 That's one (1)
The unrighteous has to be resurrected before the 1,000 years end, in order to be judged - that is, be given a fair chance at being judge on their choice by knowledge. That's two (1) One plus one (1 + 1) is two (2) I know that much is true.

So if there is a resurrection after the 1,000 years, would that not be three (3) resurrections, and if the unrighteous are raised in that hour on the last day (John 5:28, 29), who would be the ones resurrected after the 1,000 years, and for what purpose?

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That's a great question. And I do not know the answer for sure, as I am a nobody, still growing in the knowledge of God. But here is what I think I understand, according to my studies in Faith. There is a Holy Day called "The Last great Day", it's actually the 8th day of the Feast of the Lord called "Feasts of Tabernacles", which point to being kings and priests of God in earthly vessels, (Booths) which were given them as Paul teaches. (For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.)

In my understanding, this "Last Great Day" is the last judgment. At this point all humans in God's plan have been given the "Choice". I don't believe there is another resurrection, or another judgment after this "Last Great Day". And eternity is a long time, and I'm sure God has plans for His People after all this has been fulfilled, that we have not been shown.

But honestly, I don't know for sure, and I might be completely wrong, goodness knows I have been corrected before. And that's OK, because in my understanding, what's important is to be "be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." And to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus". And have faith that God will reveal these things to me in His Good Time.

It's good, in my view, to have these discussions. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

Studyman said:

That's a great question. And I do not know the answer for sure, as I am a nobody, still growing in the knowledge of God. But here is what I think I understand, according to my studies in Faith. There is a Holy Day called "The Last great Day", it's actually the 8th day of the Feast of the Lord called "Feasts of Tabernacles", which point to being kings and priests of God in earthly vessels, (Booths) which were given them as Paul teaches. (For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.)

In my understanding, this "Last Great Day" is the last judgment. At this point all humans in God's plan have been given the "Choice". I don't believe there is another resurrection, or another judgment after this "Last Great Day". And eternity is a long time, and I'm sure God has plans for His People after all this has been fulfilled, that we have not been shown.

But honestly, I don't know for sure, and I might be completely wrong, goodness knows I have been corrected before. And that's OK, because in my understanding, what's important is to be "be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." And to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus". And have faith that God will reveal these things to me in His Good Time.

It's good, in my view, to have these discussions. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

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Where does it say "last great day" in the Bible? I know Jesus says four times he will resurrect or raise people up on the last day, and he says judgment day is on the last day.

Jesus will reign in his kingdom for a thousand years Revelation 20:4-6 . And There will be a new heavens and a new earth and New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven descending from heaven to the New Earth. Revelation 21:1, 2-4

Revelation 21:5 says: God is making all things new.

CoreyD said:

Do you believe God resurrected Samuel to talk to Saul?

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What? Who said anything about resurrecting Samuel to talk to Saul?

CoreyD said:

This, after God refused to talk to Saul, and told Samuel not to, and Saul turned to a witch - a sorcerer, of which God said have no dealings?

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Are you seriously of the opinion that God cannot use a séance for his own purposes? Things pretty obviously did not go the way the witch had expected.

CoreyD said:

After this post Mark, where all you said was hitting a brick wall... that is, clashing against all the scriptures, these were my words to you, and really, there is nothing more I can add that will change the way it is.

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Show me point by point where what I said was "clashing against all the scriptures". All you see is me clashing against your use of scriptures. Did God tell Saul he would never again show him what's what via Samuel? Do you think, after Samuel died, that God would give him a choice whether or not to do what God had in mind concerning Saul? Samuel repeated what God told him before, that Saul was rejected and without hope, and added that Saul would die the next day.

Is it not possible that you are only adamant about your POV?

walter45 said:

I feel we would get a more complete understanding of what The Bible intended for us to understand when we include all the scriptures we can find on that Bible topic.

Someone please give me a scripture that seems to explain all people automatically after death get everlasting life in heaven or hell?

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Who said anything about "automatically"? It happens by God's sayso, and no other way. Or do you think that what God has determined gets somehow undone?

Mark Quayle said:

Who said anything about "automatically"? It happens by God's sayso, and no other way. Or do you think that what God has determined gets somehow undone?

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That's what I leaned in church when I was a boy, I thought a lot of people believed that way?

walter45 said:

That's what I leaned in church when I was a boy, I thought a lot of people believed that way?

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This is a post that will soon be invisible, fwiw. 99% of forums, posts, webpages, etc, may be what someone learned growing up.
There is a lot of evidence, maybe possible to call a lot of proof, that what people learn growing up is almost all wrong. Thus the internet is not a reliable source of truth nor wisdom nor God's Kingdom - without even mentioning that forums and websites are practically all put up by and for money.

Aaron112 said:

This is a post that will soon be invisible, fwiw. 99% of forums, posts, webpages, etc, may be what someone learned growing up.
There is a lot of evidence, maybe possible to call a lot of proof, that what people learn growing up is almost all wrong. Thus the internet is not a reliable source of truth nor wisdom nor God's Kingdom - without even mentioning that forums and websites are practically all put up by and for money.

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Sorry if I said something I should not have said, Let me know when I do that again please, thank you.

walter45 said:

Sorry if I said something I should not have said, Let me know when I do that again please, thank you.

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'Everyone' is groping along, or doing something worse in pride, or doing something else..... pretending?

None-the-less, YHVH Willing, your request will be answered by private msg if possible.....

CoreyD said:

I appreciate your modesty and honesty.
Being willing to learn shows humility.
I'm always referring to the Ethiopian eunuch, who said to Phillip, when asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?”, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?"
What humility!

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Acts 8:27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

I like this story as well. From the beginning of the Chapter there were men who "professed to know God" like Saul and the mainstream religion of that time, who also read and claimed to understand what Isaiah said. This Ethiopian had gone to Jerusalem to worship God and no doubt heard the Pharisees promote their religion. But he was still seeking answers that the mainstream religions of his time could or would not answer. If this man was seeking God from his heart, would God would reveal Himself to him. I liken it to the "pricks" in Paul's heart Jesus spoke of. I don't believe it was a single prick that happened on the road to Damascus, rather, Paul was pricked in his heart at the way they treated Stephen and others. He was bothered by the commandments of men his adopted religion taught for doctrines. And he had guides that ruled over the Temple for centuries. But Jesus led him to someone God gave to Jesus for this purpose. I see the Ethiopian as another example of the same thing.

And it makes perfect Spiritual sense. If a man is Seeking God's Truth, His Kingdom, His Righteousness from the heart, his heart is open to God's Truth, God's Kingdom, God's Righteousness. But if a man is only seeking justification, he can find that in any religion on the planet. In my view. As it is written:

"and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you".

CoreyD said:

He did not say, "God will help me understand"... like the man that was waiting on the roof of his car, waiting for God to save him, and told the people in the boat that came to take him to safety, "God will save me. I'm waiting on him."
That's a funny illustration, but it does highlight a fact so evident today, where so many millions, think that God is going to personally open their minds to truth, by his spirit.

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Yes, man's minds are opened by God's Spirit, but not simply because a man calls Jesus Lord, Lord. At least according to Scriptures, in my understanding.

CoreyD said:

Why I so much like Acts 8:26-39 too, is because it shows the means by which God teaches humble ones who are willing to learn.

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Yes, this is shown throughout the Holy scriptures. Zacharias humbled Himself, or as Paul calls it, "Yielded himself" to God, and he too was taught the Gospel of Christ. Caleb too, and Rehab was also blessed in her humility. As it is written, "The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom". No doubt the Ethiopian who was reading Isaiah, has respect unto God.

CoreyD said:

We notice that the verses before reveal that because of Saul's severely attacking the Christians the disciples scattered, and "those who had been scattered went through places [c]preaching the word. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming the [d]Christ to them." Acts 8:4, 5

So, Phillip, whom we know is called the evangelizer (Acts 21:8) was doing what his Lord and master commanded his followers - that is, spreading the message far and wide, to the ends of the earth. Acts 1:8

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Yes, as it is written: 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments "unto the apostles" whom he had chosen:

Many of his followers had other gifts.

Remember, Paul warned about men who wanted to be like the 12 Apostles, of men who "Transformed themselves" into apostles of Christ.

CoreyD said:

Then we read that while he was doing so, and "they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans, an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “go [j]south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.”

I don't know if you picked up on the points I zeroed in on.

1. Phillip was a follower of Christ, engaging in the work Jesus started, and commissioned his followers to finish.

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It seems important to me, and I'm sure you already know this, but Philip was one of the 12 Apostles that God gave to Jesus..

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

CoreyD said:

1. Jesus was using his follower, and from heaven, guiding them by means of his angels, and holy spirit of course.

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Matt. 28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We have what Zacharias didn't have. The eye witness Testimony of Christ. And the Teachers HE CHOSE, to teach us, just as HE chose to teach the Ethiopian. He not only had Moses and the Prophets, but he had Jesus and the teachers He Chose, Philip and Peter and Matthew and John, and the last Apostle, Paul.

Truly a "Better Ministry".

CoreyD said:

Jesus guided a disciple to a man who was humble, and thirsting for the truth.

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Absolutely, that is the key isn't. Those who hunger and thirst for God's righteousness.

CoreyD said:

This highlights that as it was when Jesus walked this earth, and went out with his disciples, organizing and instructing them (Luke 8:1; Luke 9:1-6; Luke 10:1-11), it is the same way today, as Jesus promised to be with them to the end of the world. Matthew 28:20

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Yes, even to this day, the Prophets HE sent, And His Son, by whom HE created all things, and the Apostles HE gave to Jesus to teach me, are here. Just as Promised.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now that we know God, lets us all Glorify Him "As God" as did Noah, Abraham, Moses James and Cornelius, and all true believers, in Faith that HE will guide our footsteps as He did those men of Faith.

CoreyD said:

What this teaches us, and something that will always be before me, is that if we really are to understand the Bible accurately, we need to allow Christ's disciples to teach us, as that Ethiopian allowed Phillip to.

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I agree, that is why I only study the Holy Scriptures, and this based on what Paul teaches.

1 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known "the holy scriptures", which are able to make thee wise unto salvation "through faith" which is "in" Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God "may be perfect", (As both God and His son Jesus instructs) throughly furnished unto all good works.

CoreyD said:

Of course with the mass of confusion Satan has created, we need to be able to identify Christ's followers today... which to my mind isn't that hard. We just need to look for the marks.

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God has already "looked at the marks" of the Teachers Jesus gave us. Why should a man seek other voices?

CoreyD said:

The Bible can be difficult to understand, but with the help Jesus provides, it can become very easy. So easy, even a child can become his academic teacher's teacher.

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I am just a no body, I cannot make myself a teacher.

CoreyD said:

Why that is the case, is because the best teachers take you from the basics - a foundation, and builds stone upon stone, until the building is completed.

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Jesus is the Rock of my foundation. He said if I become a "Doer" of His Sayings, the house I build will stand in the storms and trials of my life. Shouldn't a man spend his time on this earth being diligent, pressing towards, Laboring to be acceptable to God? I'm not sure God's Needs more teachers than those HE already provided me. Shall a man lose patience with God in understanding difficult parts of His Word, and go seek to learn from someone else who may profess to know God?

That has never worked out for man, according to Scriptures and we are warned against this very thing over and over and over. When asked about the end times, Jesus could have warned about Islam, or Atheists, or satanism, or whatever. But HE didn't. He warned of ONE Specific religion.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that "no man" deceive you.

5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall" deceive many.

My brother, please be careful of the teachers you choose to adopt. The deceiver of this world has had a lot of practice, and God gave His people "HIS Armor", and as you can see, there is no mention of any other teachers here, other that the ones God has already given.

I am so grateful for this discussion, and the fellowship as we share our understandings in the seeking of the Righteousness of God. Please let me answer your question in another post as this one is getting too long.

Mark Quayle said:

Who said anything about "automatically"? It happens by God's sayso, and no other way. Or do you think that what God has determined gets somehow undone?

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Could you please explain to me why Jesus uses these words: "will not see life" at John 3:36 and at Matthew 7:14 "the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

I would appreciate any light you can shed on the subject. I am just trying to make sense of these two scriptures.