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Aaron112

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Jesus clearly believed that caring for the poor and marginalized wasn't just a nice thing to do, but an obligation. In two separate parables, people end up in Gehenna because they neglected the poor, the hungry, the sick, the imprisoned.

Do you know what God says in Isaiah about those who neglect the poor? He says, "I don't want your stinking sacrifices! When you pray, I hide my eyes from you!"
Cool, glad I saw this testimony here. (most of the forum is not cool)

I also like and appreciate that Jesus does not ask for people to be charitable, nor even call charity something good to do --- no, rather "righteous" or "righteousness" that is required and simple doing what we ought to do as servants of Jesus, with no bragging rights at all, no pride to lift up nor show nor have - just simply , simple obedience.
 
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RDKirk

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I understand your perspective with regard to 'compel'. That said, we have been commanded to go into all the world and make disciples, teaching them what Jesus taught. And when I read my Bible, I see Jesus telling a rich young ruler to sell all he had, and give to the poor. (Luke 18:22) Would that be considered a form of "social justice"? And if so, what should such a direction mean for us in the world today?

It might be called social justice by worldlings (humans),

but that is not Biblical.

For us today? Jesus stated that whoever has not given up everything for His sake, will not enter heaven - they are not in God's Kingdom nor seeking first the Kingdom of God. There's much much more - in Scripture, all in complete harmony with no contradiction. The problem comes when human words, man's words, man's tradition or religious tradition, takes the place of and above God's Word.
That's because the concern here isn't actually about the poor.

It's about the rich man, his righteousness, and his eternal destiny.
 
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bèlla

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Anyone in this country has the opportunity to grow and make as much money as they want. But they have to have the desire to make decisions that advances their position. Anyone can go into any community college and get a free education using the Pell grant and other economic help programs. They can even get a job at the school to help with their expenses. I know this because I taught community college for a bit.

No they can’t and if you’ve worked at community colleges you’ve seen the truth up close and in the classrooms during your youth. No amount of leveling will make us equal because we’re not the same. Everyone can’t be successful, intelligent, wealthy, etc. Our nature determines a lot. You’ll always have people on top and the bottom. If you put people together from better circumstances you still see the differences. Even when we’re learning the same things you’ll have separation.

In a capitalist society wealth is derived from ideas, connections or both. But if you’ve ever been in a setting and listened to people brainstorm or work in groups you’ll know why inequality exists. They don’t have an ability to generate ideas that solve problems or take what they said and craft a plan and see it to fruition. Because most people aren’t visionaries or leaders.

Our capacities aren’t identical nor is our work ethic. If evil didn’t exist you’d still have variances. Because your standard isn’t mine and that’s the part that makes some people uncomfortable. The person that’s more focused and disciplined who knows how to apply their skills will frequently outpace the majority and they’re usually more resilient.

~bella
 
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rambot

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And that’s the problem with assuming. I used the world “strictly” to qualify my statement. The government taking the main role of providing charity through entitlement programs does not preclude the churches to provide charity. I stated in my previous post that some of the largest charities are from Christian churches.

Never had I said that. You are once again assuming that just because I debated your incorrect analysis of the restoration of land by Israel every 50 years that I somehow are opposed to entitlement programs.

Here, I’m going to surprise you. I am for universal health care. I don’t follow the liberal playbook of calling everything I don’t like “evil” though.

I am an immigrant from Cuba and arrived as a child with only the one suitcase that we were allowed to take. My parents worked their fingers to the bone to give me and my brother the best upbringing possible so don’t get me going on the shortfalls of socialism and communism. Spare me the “evils” of capitalism. If this country is so bad then why do we have an immigration problem?
Sorry guy but being a "better option than a central american coutry" isn't not something to puff your chest about.
If my family could make it everyone else can to.
That's where you're wrong.
1) You said "your parents worked theri fingers to the bone to give my brother the best upbringing possible". Do you know how many children do NOT have that priviledge? There's plenty of American kids who don't have that...and it IS a priviledge.
2) If your parents could work that hard, they also had their health. Lucky them! Do you know how many children are burdenned with parents who are physically, mentally or emotionally unwell? That takes a toll and children too and having healthy parents is another privledge.
If we sat together and talked about your upbringing I would guarantee that we could find other points of priviledge too.
3) Migrant parents, IMHO will ALWAYS Be hard workers (mine were as well). It's also a priviledge to have parents who instill values like that. Many don't have that either.


I'm not saying these things to make you feel bad or that you don't deserve it; that's irrelevant. I'm saying it so you can appreciate that even in your situation, there are plenty of people who are FAAAAAR behind you guys.


Anyone in this country has the opportunity to grow and make as much money as they want. But they have to have the desire to make decisions that advances their position. Anyone can go into any community college and get a free education using the Pell grant and other economic help programs. They can even get a job at the school to help with their expenses. I know this because I taught community college for a bit.
Hold on. Are you suggesting (I'm not American so I'm asking for clarity)....the Pell grant can get you post secondary schooling COMPLETELY FOR FREE...and you are saying ANYONE can access that? because I didn't know that to be true. And if you don't qualify for those grants to those in extreme poverty and you have to get a student loan, that is a handicap....


Anyone below the poverty line can get food stamps and snap.
There are cuts here.
Cuts cuts cuts.
All schools provide lunches for children.
Not free. Who pays? Plenty of stories of kids who can't get cause they can't afford it....
and when someone tries to help?
Lunch lady fired for giving student free meal refuses offer to be rehired
And thoughts on Trump cutting these budgets?

There are programs to help people get a job.
Neurodivergence is a thing and some people struggle mightily with getting AND THEN ALSO KEEPING a job.
Cuts here.
There are programs that allow people to get clothes and other essentials. There is also a large underground black market that buys entitlement program benefits, like food stamps, from the beneficiaries.

The programs are there but people abuse them.
People abuse every program. That doesn't make the program bad; it means you need more punishment. Keeping in mind the amount of abuse that was happenning at the corporate level. IT DWARVES what poor people are "taking" from you.

Go fight the GOOD battle. Punch UP...not down.

As I stated before, I have no problems with entitlement programs but only for those that really need it.
Well, those programs are designed to be given to those who really need it. But either way, we seem to always seen a lot of side comments like this when these types of incidents are very rare. And yet the companies and third party groups who work with these entitlement programs will commit fraud in the millions and get just a "finger wag".


I am an independent because I can’t stand the drama and non action of both parties in the US. Both parties have gone to the extreme so no one benefits and there is no possibility of compromise. If you want change to happen then get off your far left liberal high horse and start voting people in that are more toward the center where maybe communication and compromise might be possible.
I don't know Via that great but I don't think he identifies as "far left".


Either way, most of the programs you are using as examples of ways that the US helps the poor are LEFT IDEAS that LEFT leaning government support and properly fund and that this and other subsequent Republican governments will continues to chip away at so that their billionaire buddies can pay less taxes. So, if you say you like those programs (since you cite them as you do in this thread), I would guess that you want them properly funded right?
 
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bèlla

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1) You said "your parents worked theri fingers to the bone to give my brother the best upbringing possible". Do you know how many children do NOT have that priviledge? There's plenty of American kids who don't have that...and it IS a priviledge.

We need to abandon this word from our vernacular and restore its proper use. Having responsible parents is not a privilege. They’re supposed to be. Human frailties and dysfunction won’t change that. He didn’t win the lottery they did their job.

2) If your parents could work that hard, they also had their health. Lucky them! Do you know how many children are burdenned with parents who are physically, mentally or emotionally unwell? That takes a toll and children too and having healthy parents is another privledge.

That isn’t a privilege either. The majority aren’t disabled, unwell or mentally compromised. Most people have healthy parents.

If we sat together and talked about your upbringing I would guarantee that we could find other points of priviledge too.
3) Migrant parents, IMHO will ALWAYS Be hard workers (mine were as well). It's also a priviledge to have parents who instill values like that. Many don't have that either.

You believe its a privilege because you’ve normalized the other. It wouldn’t matter what the world does. We set the standard in our home and it‘s probable they understood that. I doubt they spent time if any on conversations like that. The vision is foremost not the world’s plight. That’s how you ascend.

I'm not saying these things to make you feel bad or that you don't deserve it; that's irrelevant. I'm saying it so you can appreciate that even in your situation, there are plenty of people who are FAAAAAR behind you guys.

What is there to be ashamed of? His parents honored their responsibilities and reared them well. As they should. And it’s probable they’re built differently than most and have things in their tank others lack. That’s why they succeeded.

That’s the danger of not knowing who you are and what the Lord entrusted. If you’re not careful they’ll dim your star or try to diminish you in some way. If God calls you to the clouds you go. It doesn’t matter whose behind you. They have their own assignment and gifting and its rarely the same.

Sometimes the Lord places people in better situations to prepare them for what’s ahead. It isn’t a privilege it’s part of their destiny.

~bella
 
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Hentenza

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No they can’t and if you’ve worked at community colleges you’ve seen the truth up close and in the classrooms during your youth. No amount of leveling will make us equal because we’re not the same. Everyone can’t be successful, intelligent, wealthy, etc. Our nature determines a lot. You’ll always have people on top and the bottom. If you put people together from better circumstances you still see the differences. Even when we’re learning the same things you’ll have separation.

In a capitalist society wealth is derived from ideas, connections or both. But if you’ve ever been in a setting and listened to people brainstorm or work in groups you’ll know why inequality exists. They don’t have an ability to generate ideas that solve problems or take what they said and craft a plan and see it to fruition. Because most people aren’t visionaries or leaders.

Our capacities aren’t identical nor is our work ethic. If evil didn’t exist you’d still have variances. Because your standard isn’t mine and that’s the part that makes some people uncomfortable. The person that’s more focused and disciplined who knows how to apply their skills will frequently outpace the majority and they’re usually more resilient.

~bella
I’m going to totally disagree with you here. Your argument centers in people not being smart enough to make a decision. I don’t know what you have seen where you live but in the three years that I taught in Community College I saw and interacted with kids from all socioeconomic level who forged ahead and were committed to get ahead in life. To this day I know of several that kept in touch and have a professional careers and/or have opened their own business. Kids are not dumb but sometimes they just need guidance so don’t put them down.
 
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Hentenza

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View attachment 370683

Sorry guy but being a "better option than a central american coutry" isn't not something to puff your chest about.
I have no clue what said here. Please clarify.
That's where you're wrong.
1) You said "your parents worked theri fingers to the bone to give my brother the best upbringing possible". Do you know how many children do NOT have that priviledge? There's plenty of American kids who don't have that...and it IS a priviledge.
How many? Tell me?
2) If your parents could work that hard, they also had their health. Lucky them! Do you know how many children are burdenned with parents who are physically, mentally or emotionally unwell? That takes a toll and children too and having healthy parents is another privledge.
If we sat together and talked about your upbringing I would guarantee that we could find other points of priviledge too.
How many? I guess being alive is also a privilege. Why is it that most everything is a privilege for the left? The kids these days s are growing without coping skills because of the ideas from the left. People need to be taught responsibility and hard work instead of “everyone gets a trophy”.
3) Migrant parents, IMHO will ALWAYS Be hard workers (mine were as well). It's also a priviledge to have parents who instill values like that. Many don't have that either.
Not a privilege. Get off the privilege left fallacy.
I'm not saying these things to make you feel bad or that you don't deserve it; that's irrelevant. I'm saying it so you can appreciate that even in your situation, there are plenty of people who are FAAAAAR behind you guys.

Never said otherwise but your ideas are the typical left everyone is a victim ideology. If the government pays able people to stay home then all they are doing is keeping them in poverty.


Hold on. Are you suggesting (I'm not American so I'm asking for clarity)....the Pell grant can get you post secondary schooling COMPLETELY FOR FREE...and you are saying ANYONE can access that? because I didn't know that to be true. And if you don't qualify for those grants to those in extreme poverty and you have to get a student loan, that is a handicap....
Yes for a 2 year college. Everyone is eligible and it is a grant not a loan.
There are cuts here.
Cuts cuts cuts.
What are cuts?
Not free. Who pays? Plenty of stories of kids who can't get cause they can't afford it....
and when someone tries to help?
Lunch lady fired for giving student free meal refuses offer to be rehired
And thoughts on Trump cutting these budgets?
“The National School Lunch Program (NSLP) is a federally assisted meal program operating in public and nonprofit private schools and residential child care institutions. It provides nutritionally balanced, low-cost or free lunches to children each school day. The program was established under the National School Lunch Act, signed by President Harry Truman in 1946.”



Neurodivergence is a thing and some people struggle mightily with getting AND THEN ALSO KEEPING a job.
Cuts here.
Again, what are cuts? In the US we have almost full employment. People are getting and retaining jobs so you are off base here.
People abuse every program. That doesn't make the program bad; it means you need more punishment. Keeping in mind the amount of abuse that was happenning at the corporate level. IT DWARVES what poor people are "taking" from you.
There it goes the next move from the left playbook. Corporations are just evil. lol

People abuse the programs because the programs don’t have sufficient checks and balances.
Go fight the GOOD battle. Punch UP...not down.


Well, those programs are designed to be given to those who really need it. But either way, we seem to always seen a lot of side comments like this when these types of incidents are very rare. And yet the companies and third party groups who work with these entitlement programs will commit fraud in the millions and get just a "finger wag".
Some of the companies and some of the people commit fraud. The people that deserve the help should not include able bodied people that are perfectly capable of working or those that trade their benefits for cash or drugs.
I don't know Via that great but I don't think he identifies as "far left".
Who is he?
Either way, most of the programs you are using as examples of ways that the US helps the poor are LEFT IDEAS that LEFT leaning government support and properly fund and that this and other subsequent Republican governments will continues to chip away at so that their billionaire buddies can pay less taxes. So, if you say you like those programs (since you cite them as you do in this thread), I would guess that you want them properly funded right?
I understand your confusion since you are not from the US. Some of these programs have been around for decades (including the free lunch program which has been around since 1946). I don’t know if you can vote in the US but you have certainly drank the far left kool aid.
 
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bèlla

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I’m going to totally disagree with you here. Your argument centers in people not being smart enough to make a decision. I don’t know what you have seen where you live but in the three years that I taught in Community College I saw and interacted with kids from all socioeconomic level who forged ahead and were committed to get ahead in life. To this day I know of several that kept in touch and have a professional careers and/or have opened their own business. Kids are not dumb but sometimes they just need guidance so don’t put them down.

I didn’t mention anything about decisions in my response. I mentioned ideas and execution. You may want to review it once more.

~bella
 
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Hentenza

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I didn’t mention anything about decisions in my response. I mentioned ideas and execution. You may want to review it once more.

~bella
You said:

They don’t have an ability to generate ideas that solve problems or take what they said and craft a plan and see it to fruition. Because most people aren’t visionaries or leaders.

This is all about generating ideas which generate decisions. Ideas lead to actions and actions rely on decisions. This is not about being visionaries or leaders but about making decisions about their life and their future. People are capable of having ideas that generate decisions.
 
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bèlla

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This is all about generating ideas which generate decisions. Ideas lead to actions and actions rely on decisions. This is not about being visionaries or leaders but about making decisions about their life and their future. People are capable of having ideas that generate decisions.

They don’t have an ability to generate ideas that solve problems

Means what it says.

or take what they said and craft a plan and see it to fruition.

Means what it says. Turning ideas into plans and executing.

Because most people aren’t visionaries or leaders.

These are the people with the gifts and talents to do what I mentioned.

In both of your responses you’ve inferred things that aren’t in the portions you’ve quoted and interjected tangents on smartness and getting ahead in life. None of which I touched on. I said we aren’t the same and we’re not.

~bella
 
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o_mlly

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The person that’s more focused and disciplined who knows how to apply their skills will frequently outpace the majority and they’re usually more resilient.
Aren't the italicized properties acts of one's will rather than one's innate intelligence?
 
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bèlla

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Aren't the italicized properties acts of one's will rather than one's innate intelligence?

I made no connection to intelligence in that statement. The lone example of its use was this: Everyone can’t be successful, intelligent, wealthy, etc.

I don’t associate the comment with intelligence nor is it automatically assigned to will. My utilization of capacity and nature are more apropos. Some people possess those qualities in their nature and respond in kind without needing to involve the will. Others are fueled by their capacity which often displays itself as drive and we see the same. Whereas will is more energetic and must be directed. I prefer to operate from a flow state and harness it instead.

~bella
 
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o_mlly

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I made no connection to intelligence in that statement. The lone example of its use was this: Everyone can’t be successful, intelligent, wealthy, etc.

I don’t associate the comment with intelligence nor is it automatically assigned to will. My utilization of capacity and nature are more apropos. Some people possess those qualities in their nature and respond in kind without needing to involve the will. Others are fueled by their capacity which often displays itself as drive and we see the same. Whereas will is more energetic and must be directed. I prefer to operate from a flow state and harness it instead.

~bella
So are the behaviors of human beings determined, ie., no free will?
 
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Hentenza

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They don’t have an ability to generate ideas that solve problems

Means what it says.

or take what they said and craft a plan and see it to fruition.

Means what it says. Turning ideas into plans and executing.

Because most people aren’t visionaries or leaders.

These are the people with the gifts and talents to do what I mentioned.

In both of your responses you’ve inferred things that aren’t in the portions you’ve quoted and interjected tangents on smartness and getting ahead in life. None of which I touched on. I said we aren’t the same and we’re not.

~bella
You have a very low opinion of people. I have seen differently so I will not share your opinion.
 
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RDKirk

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So are the behaviors of human beings determined, ie., no free will?
Only some Christians believe in absolute free will.

Everyone else (including many Christians) understand that the will to act is always constrained in some way beyond the means to change.

Bèlla is saying things that are on the edge of Objectivism, and that tends to make people uneasy.

But if you've been in the kind of management that aims to take a broad range of people and bring them to a specific standard (which is what the military does), you learn that you can't handle everyone exactly the same and expect them to reach a single standard. You either have to handle them differently or accept that not everyone is going to reach the standard. And usually, both.
 
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Larniavc

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When you study the Torah (aka books of Law, books of Moses, first five books of the Bible) it positively screams social justice. Not some voluntary "help them out out of the goodness of your heart." Assistance for the poor, the widow, the orphan are built into the framework of Israelite society in a very involuntary manner.
Stoning of rape victims…..
 
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Larniavc

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The person that’s more focused and disciplined who knows how to apply their skills will frequently outpace the majority and they’re usually more resilient.
Yeah but (and I think that bears repeating); yeah but that individual difference is most often significantly outweighed by one’s starting point in life.

People born rich simply have it so much easier all else being equal.
 
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Larniavc

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You believe its a privilege because you’ve normalized the other.
From the perspective of the underprivileged the ‘baseline’ is the privileged.

The trouble with America is that it’s society is cut throat that a relative few climb on the faces of the majority to get theirs.

Having good parents is a privilege because not having good parents is a huge disadvantage for a kid growing up.

It’s no use saying things are ‘supposed to be’ so when clearly that is not how the world works. Having really good parents isn’t particularly common.
 
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rambot

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We need to abandon this word from our vernacular and restore its proper use. Having responsible parents is not a privilege. They’re supposed to be. Human frailties and dysfunction won’t change that. He didn’t win the lottery they did their job.
As someone who has worked in social work and worked with a lot of broken kids you are 100% right.
They are SUPPOSED to be.
But some are not. These are the kids I work with.

What do you call those kids? The ones who had the terrible parents?

Just because something is "Wide spread" or common, doesn't make it NOT a privilege.
When I pray I thank GOD that I don't have bombs dropping on my head; something that, while common throughout most of the world, is still a significant burden on some people.
I recognize that my life is a LOT better because those bombs don't fall on me and I thank God for that.
That isn’t a privilege either. The majority aren’t disabled, unwell or mentally compromised. Most people have healthy parents.
Not with the kids I work with.
Why don't you allow my students the space to exist?


You believe its a privilege because you’ve normalized the other.
It's not that I've "normalized it" at all; I recognize that it exists. I'm a bit offended actually; to suggest that I don't have that same standard with my own children because it is "normalized". That is wrong. My children (because I'm a competent parent) have appropriate drive, will to succeed, and put in good effort.

Again, all I'm doing is recognizinbg that there are a lot of crap parents; and it's REALLY REALLY REALLY hard to be a sucessful kid if you have bad parents (not impossible, but hard).
What is there to be ashamed of? His parents honored their responsibilities and reared them well.
What are you talking about?
I specifically argued that I didn't want or expect him to feel ashamed. HE is lucky. HE had great parents. They ABSOLUTELY DID raise him well.



Sometimes the Lord places people in better situations to prepare them for what’s ahead. It isn’t a privilege it’s part of their destiny.

~bella
I would be honoured if you would reread my last post and change out the word "privilege" with "God-given blessing" as you read it.

I wonder if that changes how my sentiment would be received.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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[/QUOTE
Stoning of rape victims…..
If that is your legit concern to help discredit Torah you might benefit from this article a bit.
 
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