The Son of Man and the Throne Room

RandyPNW said:

Where did Jesus say what? What specifically are you denying Jesus said? Jesus commissioned his disciples to go 1st to the Jews in Israel. Paul reached out to the Jews 1st in exile.

I agree.

It's not the "Jews" you replace, but the nation Israel. They have a promised place among the Christian nations in history.

You're talking about spiritual unity and not political unity. The fact God promised Abraham "nations" indicates there must be political divisions in the current Church.

I don't agree. God made promises concerning both Israel and Jerusalem.


The existence of the earthly Jerusalem indicates its goal is to achieve what God promised Israel, a delivered and spiritually-revived Israel and Jerusalem. Currently, their spiritual counterpart is the Church in heaven, where Christ dwells until it is time to establish God's Kingdom on earth.

We all know that God did not come to save the Jews only. In fact, most of the Jews have been set aside for chastisement, due to the unbelief of the majority.

This does not mean God didn't promise Abraham a Jewish nation. He did. This is as important as it is for other nations to be included in this plan, as well.

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RandyPNW said:

Sure, I was just asked the same question on another forum. Here's how I replied....

"Abraham was promised "nations" in Gen 17. In the NT Scriptures that promise is reaffirmed, although obviously Christian nations had not yet evolved. What we do see is Jesus saying that the Kingdom of God (in its temporal form) would be taken from the nation Israel and given to another "nation" (the Roman Empire).

But you will read about "nations" several times in the book of Revelation, which was written even before there were Christian nations. Just because there were not yet Christian nations does not mean they weren't going to happen!

Rev 5.9 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."

Rev 7.9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

The person I was discussing this with believed that "nations" is purely a reference to the inclusion of different nationalities in the Church, which I suppose is a reasonable view. And it's certainly true that people from every nationality is included in the Church.

I just happen to think the word "nations" is involved in God's promise to Abraham to show concern not just for the individual soul, but also for the community. God cares not just about the health of one, but more, about our social and community health. God cares about things like crime, law, justice, and even recreation. In sum, God cares about societies and nations.

That's why I think God promised "nations" in the present age. It is a way of developing towards the New Jerusalem, just as God started with 12 tribes to build towards the nation Israel. Anyway, the simple mention of "nations" in the Abrahamic promise implies this for me. You certainly may see it otherwise, if you wish.

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RandyPNW said:

My position is that God promised Abraham nations who generally hold to faith as a principle of their society--it obviously includes both people of faith and those who abandon that faith. I understand your own position, and it's respectable. It obviously is an issue that is not easily resolvable.

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