A conversation about unity.

MarkRohfrietsch · 2025-09-05T19:45:48-0500

The Liturgist said:
Yep, that’s a demonaic. Did you have the opportunity to get him in for an exorcism? I would suggest, after obtaining legal advice*, training ushers to throw holy water on anyone who menaces the congregation as it is known to stun demons and it might give you time to free the victim.

No, not yet, we are searching for him, and are as ready as we will ever be. While we just don't use Holy Water, it is used in our Exorcism rite; it's preparation is also clearly instructed within the rite; as is the use of Holy images, incense, and particularly prayer.

MarkRohfrietsch · 2025-09-05T19:50:56-0500

Hentenza said:
So debunk it.

It is difficult to debunk when debunking is met with a wall of bunk. It is soon time to take St. Paul's advice and shake the dust off of my feet and move on.

Hentenza · 2025-09-05T19:55:24-0500

MarkRohfrietsch said:
It is difficult to debunk when debunking is met with a wall of bunk. It is soon time to take St. Paul's advice and shake the dust off of my feet and move on.

That’s wise but I have to stay as long as we are viewed as second class citizens and not Christian enough.

ozso · 2025-09-05T20:02:20-0500

The Liturgist said:
Attacking the Roman Catholic Church is morally wrong because of the problem of anti-Catholic persecution (so is attacking the Protestant or Orthodox churches), but if one wishes to attack all churches, that’s an extraordinary claim which would require extraordinary evidence.

Attacking the Catholic church would be claiming it's an apostate church, a synagogue of satan, the pope is the antichrist etc. None of that is going on here.

"No one can buy or work their way into heaven" is a common position held within Christianity with Ephesians 2:8 as a foundational verse and many others like it.

ozso · 2025-09-05T20:03:47-0500

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Kind of like the reformed protestants, who disagree and just start another Church, or form a cult of personality.

Yeah that looks to be a bit of a mess too.

A New Dawn · 2025-09-05T20:14:46-0500

The Liturgist said:
The Roman Catholics aren’t the ones wanting access to other people’s communion.

Belief in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is an article of faith in the Nicene Creed - which does not necessarily mean the Roman Catholic Church, but the idea of the Church Catholic, however you define it: most Evangelicals tend to believe it is an invisible entity of all believers, or consists of the local church. And the New Testament does speak of a single Church - the Body of Christ. Catholic means “according to the Whole”, and thus whoever claims their church is Catholic, whether Protestant, such as Lutherans and Anglicans, or Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, or the Assyrian Church of the East, is actually saying their particular church is a part of the entire church - but they will disagree on what the entire church is, with the definition varying between each of the groups I just mentioned (except for “Branch Ecclesiology” which is known to exist, in several cases without official endorsement, in all of the above, which does not mean it is correct, but it is popular. I am not endorsing it but merely informing about it. But what everyone must acknowledge is the Scriptural reality of one Body of Christ - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, even if they disagree on its nature, relationship to specific denominations or identity.

As a historical note:

I would say until the 20th century most laity regarded their church as representing the Church Catholic either exclusively or in an idealized state, even if this was not its official doctrine or the view of its founder (for example, Martin Luther defined the Church based on orthopraxis rather than connections to Lutheranism so churches other than Lutherans could be entirely Catholic and Orthodox according to the Lutheran model, but an extreme mistrust of non-Lutheran churches began to appear in the 18th and 19th century likely in reaction to the forced union of Lutheran and Calvinist churches and the Pietist movement, although the most pro-Lutheran book I have simply refers to churches of other beliefs as “Heterodox” leaving open the possibility of an Orthodox church compatible with Lutheranism existing. Since that time, we’ve seen some conservative Anglicans who left the Episcopal church and some conservative Lutherans in a state of full communion, which means more than, for example, the ELCA being in full communion with the UMC or the ECUSA, since the ELCA is part of the Lutheran World Federation which has a great many members which are in direct communion with, or are the result of mergers between, Lutheran and Calvinist churches, and which are what the Lutherans call “crypto-Calvinist.”

The discussion is about unity. Protestants aren’t wanting the Catholic communion. Unity revolves around respect for the faith of fellow believers, not wanting what the other has. As you say, it is a tenant of the Nicene Creed, a show of solidarity with the body of Christ. It’s pretty obvious who is and who is not interested in unity, but it is one of the things Christ expects of His followers.

ozso · 2025-09-05T20:19:27-0500

MarkRohfrietsch said:
This hardly even qualifies for an answer; you really don't have a clue. The individual misrepresented himself to Pastor; the devil is the father of lies. How would you deal with a situation like this? Crap your pants? Sorry, but I am feeling goaded and am losing patience; even our Lord lost patience with those who missed the point (the money changers).

I was asking a question, not giving an answer. And yes I didn't have a clue as to what you were talking about until you just explained the situation some. How would I deal with a situation like that? How am I supposed to know that when I don't know what the details of the situation are?

ARBITER01 · 2025-09-05T20:32:51-0500

Hentenza said:
My brother in Christ, citing general scripture without comment or exegesis as a defense does not in any way help you debunk what the previous poster was promoting. Please be specific and I will be happy to engage.

I don't think they can.

Truth is truth. Jesus is our High Priest, our Mediator of the new covenant in His blood. If any of us doesn't have His regeneration and His ongoing forgiveness of sins in our lives, than we are not His. Period.

Just because a denomination makes up a bunch of rules and laws to abide by, and creates a couple of scenarios to engage in under the guise of salvation, doesn't mean anything if Jesus is not involved and granting forgiveness in the process.

Unity amongst denominations and different churches is just foolish. What matters is an ongoing relationship with Jesus. Only He is going to allow you in the marriage supper of The Lamb. No one is going to be able to work their way in otherwise.

ozso · 2025-09-05T20:39:45-0500

MarkRohfrietsch said:
You heard wrong,

Okay then why is the Eucharist being called invalid when Protestants partake of it?

Xeno.of.athens · 2025-09-05T20:51:45-0500

The Liturgist said:
The Roman Catholics aren’t the ones wanting access to other people’s communion.

Exactly, Catholics do not seek to receive bread and red juice.

The Liturgist said:
Belief in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is an article of faith in the Nicene Creed - which does not necessarily mean the Roman Catholic Church, but the idea of the Church Catholic, however you define it: most Evangelicals tend to believe it is an invisible entity of all believers, or consists of the local church.

I cannot recall the creeds ever saying "I believe in one holy catholic apostolic and invisible church", can you?

The Liturgist said:
And the New Testament does speak of a single Church - the Body of Christ. Catholic means “according to the Whole”, and thus whoever claims their church is Catholic, whether Protestant, such as Lutherans and Anglicans, or Roman Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, or the Assyrian Church of the East, is actually saying their particular church is a part of the entire church - but they will disagree on what the entire church is, with the definition varying between each of the groups I just mentioned (except for “Branch Ecclesiology” which is known to exist, in several cases without official endorsement, in all of the above, which does not mean it is correct, but it is popular.

According to the whole would be a bad fit for a good number of Protestant organisations.

The Liturgist said:
I am not endorsing it but merely informing about it. But what everyone must acknowledge is the Scriptural reality of one Body of Christ - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, even if they disagree on its nature, relationship to specific denominations or identity.

It helps if they give some thought to what the scriptures say about sacraments, governance, and doctrine. It is not as if the scriptures say nothing about it.

The Liturgist said:
As a historical note:

I would say until the 20th century most laity regarded their church as representing the Church Catholic either exclusively or in an idealized state, even if this was not its official doctrine or the view of its founder (for example, Martin Luther defined the Church based on orthopraxis rather than connections to Lutheranism so churches other than Lutherans could be entirely Catholic and Orthodox according to the Lutheran model, but an extreme mistrust of non-Lutheran churches began to appear in the 18th and 19th century likely in reaction to the forced union of Lutheran and Calvinist churches and the Pietist movement, although the most pro-Lutheran book I have simply refers to churches of other beliefs as “Heterodox” leaving open the possibility of an Orthodox church compatible with Lutheranism existing. Since that time, we’ve seen some conservative Anglicans who left the Episcopal church and some conservative Lutherans in a state of full communion, which means more than, for example, the ELCA being in full communion with the UMC or the ECUSA, since the ELCA is part of the Lutheran World Federation which has a great many members which are in direct communion with, or are the result of mergers between, Lutheran and Calvinist churches, and which are what the Lutherans call “crypto-Calvinist.”

The Catholic Church is engaged in discussions with many other churches, and as far as I know no one insists on receiving communion in a Catholic mass if their own sacramental theology denies the real and physical presence.

ozso · 2025-09-05T21:06:50-0500

The Liturgist said:
The Roman Catholics aren’t the ones wanting access to other people’s communion.

The point that's being made is "other people's communion". Where does scripture endorse separate exclusive communions? Did not Paul speak against division when addressing communion in 1 Corinthians 11?

ozso · 2025-09-05T21:24:01-0500

Xeno.of.athens said:
Exactly, Catholics do not seek to receive bread and red juice.

If not bread then what? And it's non-alcoholic wine. But really the main thing is at the church I attended you'd be viewed as a fellow Christian welcomed with open arms and quite welcome to partake in communion with us.

A New Dawn · 2025-09-05T21:55:24-0500

When did this discussion turn from unity to methods of communion?

Xeno.of.athens · 2025-09-05T22:00:10-0500

ozso said:
If not bread then what? And it's non-alcoholic wine. But really the main thing is at the church I attended you'd be viewed as a fellow Christian welcomed with open arms and quite welcome to partake in communion with us.

No doubt, but I would not partake.

Xeno.of.athens · 2025-09-05T22:08:04-0500

ozso said:
The point that's being made is "other people's communion". Where does scripture endorse separate exclusive communions? Did not Paul speak against division when addressing communion in 1 Corinthians 11?

“The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being.” (CCC §1325)

“Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation… have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery… It is for this reason that Eucharistic inter-communion is not possible.” — Catechism of the Catholic Church §1400

1. 1 Corinthians 11:27–29 — Unworthy Reception

“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord… For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself.”

This is the most direct warning. Paul insists that communion must be approached with self-examination and spiritual discernment. Many churches interpret this to mean that only those in a state of grace and doctrinal unity should receive the Eucharist.
2. 1 Corinthians 10:16–17 — Communion as Ecclesial Unity

“The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body…”

This passage links Eucharistic participation with visible unity in the Body of Christ. It implies that communion is not merely a personal act of devotion but a public sign of ecclesial membership and doctrinal concord.
3. Acts 2:42 — Apostolic Fellowship and Teaching

“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.”

The early Church’s Eucharistic life was inseparable from fidelity to apostolic teaching. This suggests that communion presupposes doctrinal alignment, not merely individual belief.
4. Titus 3:10 — Avoiding Division and Heresy

“As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him.”

While not directly about communion, this passage supports the idea that persistent doctrinal dissent or schism warrants exclusion from ecclesial fellowship—including sacramental participation.

ozso · 2025-09-05T23:34:22-0500

Xeno.of.athens said:
“The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being.” (CCC §1325)

“Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation… have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery… It is for this reason that Eucharistic inter-communion is not possible.” — Catechism of the Catholic Church §1400

1. 1 Corinthians 11:27–29 — Unworthy Reception

“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord… For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement on himself.”
This is the most direct warning. Paul insists that communion must be approached with self-examination and spiritual discernment. Many churches interpret this to mean that only those in a state of grace and doctrinal unity should receive the Eucharist.

The summation of 1 Corinthians 11 is:

33 So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34 Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

So that is the unworthy manner Paul spoke of that brought judgement.

Xeno.of.athens said:
2. 1 Corinthians 10:16–17 — Communion as Ecclesial Unity

“The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body…”
This passage links Eucharistic participation with visible unity in the Body of Christ. It implies that communion is not merely a personal act of devotion but a public sign of ecclesial membership and doctrinal concord.

Which Christian churches hold to.

Xeno.of.athens said:
3. Acts 2:42 — Apostolic Fellowship and Teaching

“They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.”
The early Church’s Eucharistic life was inseparable from fidelity to apostolic teaching. This suggests that communion presupposes doctrinal alignment, not merely individual belief.

Christian churches hold to that as well. Although the Protestant ones consider apostolic teaching to be from the gospels and epistles written by the Apostles which are considered scripture.

Xeno.of.athens said:
4. Titus 3:10 — Avoiding Division and Heresy

“As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him.”
While not directly about communion, this passage supports the idea that persistent doctrinal dissent or schism warrants exclusion from ecclesial fellowship—including sacramental participation.

Which would mean someone in a church stirring up division and dissent among the congregation. There probably isn't a single church that won't ask a trouble maker to leave. Controversy, disagreements and clashes exists within the Catholic church though. Even among the clergy. For example, there were Catholics who considered Francis to be an illegitimate Pope, or at least disagreed with things he said and his institution of the Pachamama ritual. Were they told to leave because they held that belief, or would they have only been told to leave if they started stirring up trouble within a parish?

Strong in Him · 2025-09-06T01:48:04-0500

The Liturgist said:
There are actions normally required for salvation which are done in churches, such as baptism and the Eucharist,

Not required for salvation.

Jesus saves; no one and nothing else, Acts 4:12, John 1:12, John 14:6, Ephesians 2:5, 8.
A person could become a Christian but die before they can be baptised, or receive communion. They would still be saved.

ozso · 2025-09-06T02:20:57-0500

Strong in Him said:
Not required for salvation.

Jesus saves; no one and nothing else, Acts 4:12, John 1:12, John 14:6, Ephesians 2:5, 8.
A person could become a Christian but die before they can be baptised, or receive communion. They would still be saved.

What that comes down to is someone else besides God has to be involved in bringing about salvation. Some person has to baptise you in order for you to be saved. Some person has to consecrate bread and wine for you to eat and drink before you're saved. There must be a human intercessor involved.

If you can't find a human being to baptise you and consecrate bread and wine for you, after you've repented and belived in and put your faith in Lord Jesus for salvation, you're toast if you die before then.

Strong in Him · 2025-09-06T02:30:12-0500

ozso said:
What that comes down to is someone else besides God has to be involved in bringing about salvation. Some person has to baptise you in order for you to be saved. Some person has to consecrate bread and wine for you to eat and drink before you're saved. There must be a human intercessor involved.

If you can't find a human being to baptise you and consecrate bread and wine for you, after you've repented and belived in and put your faith in Lord Jesus for salvation, you're toast if you die before then.

Fortunately God doesn't agree with that.

CerebralCherub · 2025-09-06T02:42:49-0500

ozso said:
What that comes down to is someone else besides God has to be involved in bringing about salvation. Some person has to baptise you in order for you to be saved. Some person has to consecrate bread and wine for you to eat and drink before you're saved. There must be a human intercessor involved.

If you can't find a human being to baptise you and consecrate bread and wine for you, after you've repented and belived in and put your faith in Lord Jesus for salvation, you're toast if you die before then.

Do you believe baptism is required for salvation?

Our church teaches against this and has told us that only 'cults' believe in this because it is contrary to scripture.

I'm interested because it is something that my mom believed before we read the scripture together and I passed on the knowledge from my church. Up until that point, I never even knew she believed that baptism was a requirement for salvation.

A conversation about unity.

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