No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm talking about who Paul was intending to address regardless of who might read that letter. He was addressing anyone who fit the description of being holy and sharing in the heavenly calling. Do any unbelievers fit that description? Of course not. Is this all you can say in response to what I said? How about actually addressing the points that I made and answering my questions? I'll try again.

Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

How can someone who isn't a true believer depart from God if they have no relationship with God in the first place? Who else would be told to "exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" except for true believers? That's not something you would say to someone who isn't a true believer. That is a warning to not become "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin", so it's obviously not a warning given to people who are already hardened. Also, verse 14 is not something that would be said to anyone but true believers because it is addressed to those who have steadfast "confidence" in Christ and talks about the need to hold (keep) it "to the end".

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zoidar said:

Thanks for the response A New Dawn. I will just address the Clement part for now. "all are glorified and magnified by HIS will" means glorification and magnification is the work of God. However you seem to assume God does this unconditionally, without man's cooperation and this is where I think you misunderstand Clement. You are still reading the quotes from Reformed lenses, instead of looking at it through the broader writings of the Church Fathers.

“but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. This can refer to a few different things. Probably it's referring to faith always been the only way to be justified, and it was like that from the very beginning. With that said you can't get the full meaning of the quotes without studying the Church Fathers' more closely. We need to get into their mindset. I wish I had studied the Church Fathers more myself. I mostly rely on what those who have studied them in dept say.

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A New Dawn said:

Thanks for insinuating that I don’t know how to read and understand things and that anything said at any point in time past, what?, 100 years?, 200 years? isn’t worth attending to, but all I get from you is that you will say and do anything to cling to your cherished belief that you have to be responsible for your own salvation.

I mean, forget that PAUL PREACHED IT in the Bible. Forget that many errors entered into the Catholic Church, to the point that the church needed reforming. I mean, perhaps you should consider that so many things the early church fathers said that were just downright wrong should speak to how much stock you you should put in them.

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A New Dawn said:

Thanks for insinuating that I don’t know how to read and understand things and that anything said at any point in time past, what?, 100 years?, 200 years? isn’t worth attending to, but all I get from you is that you will say and do anything to cling to your cherished belief that you have to be responsible for your own salvation.

I mean, forget that PAUL PREACHED IT in the Bible. Forget that many errors entered into the Catholic Church, to the point that the church needed reforming. I mean, perhaps you should consider that so many things the early church fathers said that were just downright wrong should speak to how much stock you you should put in them.

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zoidar said:

Of course it's worth attending to. It's just we can get things wrong if we focus on a few selected quotes from the Fathers instead of looking at the wider picture. We were discussing the Early Fathers. We can discuss Paul if you like. The Church Fathers are pointing to something that is important. Still they don't agree on everything and I don't think I agree with everything they say either. I just think it's important they are presented accurately.

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A New Dawn said:

And yet you went to great pains to ensure that anyone who read your post would come to the false conclusion you were postulating, that they never discussed the issue of total depravity.

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Brightfame52 said:

Jesus taught Tulip Truth. He said man doesnt have the ability to believe in Him Jn 6:44,65 that's total depravity

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zoidar said:

If they believed in Moses they would have been drawn to Jesus.

For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
— John 5:46-47

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A New Dawn said:

That is a stretch since, obviously, very few Jews believed in Jesus.

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Jerry N. said:

John 7:17 “Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”

I might add that a "freewill offering" was part of Temple worship.

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A New Dawn said:

For the very first quote, from Clement of Rome, you conveniently left out that he said “ all are glorified and magnified by HIS will”. Not our own. And “but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. You conveniently left that part out. The part that he gives us the faith we are justified with.

And for Ignatius of Antioch, that is the core teaching of total depravity. THE. CORE. TEACHING. Since turning to God is a spiritual activity, then it is obvious that that is something a carnal man can’t do.

Let’s go on.

Justin Martyr was saying that prior to Christ (and his saving work in us) we were born sinners and there was no good thing in us and it was IMPOSSIBLE to understand or perform spiritual things and had no innate power to save himself or attain eternal life.

Irenaeus of Lyons you were close as far as you went, but you stopped just short of what he meant by what he was saying. And it was the same as Paul said in Romans , and as Justin Martyr said. That because of man’s fallen nature, they cannot choose spiritual things.

Lactantius said we were blind, in darkness, on prison, and ignorant of God and truth, and God enlightened us, adopted us and delivered us from evil bonds and gave us wisdom. He is saying God took them while they were still in the throes of sin and regenerated them.

Athanasius said that because the devil wrought sin from the beginning, it is impossible for us to restore ourselves to liberty. And without God it is impossible for us to be one with Him.

What I’m NOT seeing is any one of them saying that it is a mutual decision or that God is only helping us along the road to salvation. ALL of them are say that man’s depravity prevents them from, not just needing help along the way, but that we don’t even know God or anything good because our hearts are too deceitful.

We don’t need for you to put your own spin on something we can clearly read for ourselves.

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Ignatius of Antioch
“They that are carnal,” says he, “cannot do the things that are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual do the things that are carnal, as neither faith the things of unbelief, nor unbelief the things of faith,” (Ep. ad Ephesians p. 22.).

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zoidar said:

Don't you think a believer can do a carnal thing? To be consistent with Ignatius words this should be the case, since you believe it says a carnal person can't do a spiritual thing.

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A New Dawn said:

Yes, a believer still sins, the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that believers have been regenerated and have a redeemed nature and the presence of the Holy Spirit to help conform them to the image of the Son, whereas non-believers still have a heart of stone and a fallen nature. A non-believer sins unrepentantly while a believer agrees with God that sin separates us and repents.

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A New Dawn said:

Yes, a believer still sins, the difference between a believer and a non-believer is that believers have been regenerated and have a redeemed nature and the presence of the Holy Spirit to help conform them to the image of the Son, whereas non-believers still have a heart of stone and a fallen nature. A non-believer sins unrepentantly while a believer agrees with God that sin separates us and repents.

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Jerry N. said:

My “like” was a mistake. I clicked the wrong post. There are many examples of unbelievers repenting for a sin without being saved. One only has to look at how many times Israel turned to God only to turn away from Him later. The Torah alone can convince one of sin, but it doesn’t mean that it leads to salvation every time. I guess one could argue that it is still God’s work since He is the source of the Torah, but there is still an element of free will.

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