The Teachings of Jesus; a guide to leadership

John Helpher said:

"From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". In modern day parlance people have reworded it as, "When someone tells you who he is, listen to him!" The point is that you can know a person's heart (or at least get a more informed idea of it) by using the teachings of Jesus as a guide, especially since the way Jesus phrases it suggests that it won't always be easy to interpret when speech is indicative of some problem (or some good) in the heart. The more we practice, the easier it becomes.

Click to expand...

IF it was easy, then how to the false gospels flourish so much everywhere such that the "flocks" defend the <false> leaders ?

John Helpher said:

"Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven". The way we're supposed to behave right now is the same as how it should be in the next life.

Click to expand...

It is interesting that many believe this refers to us and not to God exerting His will here. They think we will still act in control there as we do here.

Aaron112 said:

then how to the false gospels flourish so much everywhere such that the "flocks" defend the <false> leaders

Click to expand...

Tribal animal instinct still reigns over human nature, even in religion which theoretically tells us not to behave this way. Oxymoron of sorts as flesh tries to replace spirit. I'm surprised they haven't built stadiums where sects battle it out every week giving other league sports a run for their money. Different face, same mentality.

timothyu said:

as flesh tries to replace spirit. I'm surprised they haven't built stadiums where sects battle it out every week

Click to expand...

sad. observation. daily. stadiums = forums.

Good point

I have been reading the early church fathers who were basically the disciples of the disciples. Like Clement bishop of Rome around 88AD and Ignatius of Antioch around 110AD. Peter and Paul played a big influence on the church as they mention them regularly.

But the overall impression I got what that everything was centered around Christ and His example. The leaders were like the disciples servants for the church as leaders. That was the paradox. That like Christ they were not political or outspoken in a confrontational way. Though they were firm on false teachings and like Paul dispised this as undermining the teachings.

But both Clement and Ignatius were executed. Ignatius wrote to the churches on his way to Rome to be executed. Like he voluntarily went to his death. On the way he is giving his last encouragement and reminding them of Christs sacrifice.

It seems they were constantly under threat and persecution but never fought back or engaged in confrontation. Just quietly followed Christs example of remaining meek and humble in the face of enermies.

They were constantly going on about how meek a bishop was, how they spoke little words but their meekness and Christlike disposition was what impressed them the most.

Peter mentions this in how even as a servant to an unjust master by being Christlike and obedient and pure this will cause the unjust to look to God without a word spoken.

So it seems to me the early church was very much focused on living like Christ. Living like they were in Gods kingdom. Very seperate and as we know a threat to the pagan Romans because they were so powerful in their example of Christ. Even to the point of subjection and death while always being above reproach so that the Romans did not have any charges against them like Christ.

I think this is missing from the modern church in the west. WE don't see enough standing up for Christ or being humble and obedient. Its all about doing it the worlds way rather than Gods way. I think if anything Christ church should be in conflict with the world. We should expect to see persecution if the church is truely standing with Christ.

stevevw said:

So it seems to me the early church was very much focused on living like Christ. Living like they were in Gods kingdom. Very seperate and as we know a threat to the pagan Romans because they were so powerful in their example of Christ. Even to the point of subjection and death while always being above reproach so that the Romans did not have any charges against them like Christ.

Click to expand...

And Rome eventually applied the old adage 'if you can't beat them, join them' in order to control the narrative to their advantage. Typical human governance.

stevevw said:

So it seems to me the early church was very much focused on living like Christ. Living like they were in Gods kingdom. Very seperate and as we know a threat to the pagan Romans because they were so powerful in their example of Christ. Even to the point of subjection and death while always being above reproach so that the Romans did not have any charges against them like Christ.

Click to expand...

Is there any testimony or evidence that the followers of Jesus were actually a threat to "pagan" Romans ?
I think instead the false religious leaders did not want true disciples to live.
The false religious leaders persuaded or forced or otherwise got the "pagan?" Romans to take sides against the faithful followers of Jesus.

Was there not an opinion that because the Christians refused to honour the pagan gods, that whenever pagan prayers failed, be it crops or something, they assumed it was because the gods were angry at the Christians, thus it was their fault and they should be held accountable?

Runningman said:

Reflecting on those words, it's an invitation for God to examine someone and forgive them based on whether or not they are forgiving other people. If they aren't forgiving people their trespasses against them then it's the same as saying "God, don't forgive me because I don't forgive others." In that way, it's a bit of a dangerous prayer and it's something Jesus taught.

Click to expand...

And entirely fitting Jesus' second commandment and the will of God since the Garden, putting His will first thus helping all in need, not just serving self as selfish man is prone to do. This is the foundation of our existence according to God. Man has opposite ideas..

Aaron112 said:

Is there any testimony or evidence that the followers of Jesus were actually a threat to "pagan" Romans ?

Click to expand...

Only in how the emperors and especially Nero executed so many. Especially the leaders when they were summons to Rome to renounce their belief and bow to the pagan gods or be executed. Peter, Paul, Clement and many others. For example Paul was executed with a other leaders.

But also average Christians and I think right into the 4th century. Of course we have the famous claim by Nero blaming the Christians as causing the great fire of Rome and other Roman heads who wrote how destestable or trouble making Christians were.

Even late in the 2nd century under Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius was entertaining the crowds by feeding Christians to the beasts. There is an account of a 2nd century slave women named Blandina who was fed to the beasts after being tortured for several days at the Colosseum. The Romans could not believe what they considered the lowest of low be so brave. Despite a long and painful ordeal she never wavered and prayed to God.

Thats why they hated Christians because they feared God and especially Christ. We can see it was still a thorn in Romes side for a long time until Christianity became the religion of the Empire that persecuted it.

Theres stories of dead criminals and Christians on spikes some just heads on spikes lining the roads into Rome as a deterent. But this would not count the everyday persecution and secrecy Christians had to live under. At least until it spread beyond Rome. Several early secret chapels have been found. But also Christians would have met in back streets and houses, in dark corners and upper rooms.

So they were not free and we could imagine today if a group is descriminated and persecuted and not able to freely live their belief. I think in some ways this is happening again. Though no where near as brutal as the early church.

Though in some nations its getting to genocidal levels and the world does not really care. Where are all the protests blocking streets over Christians being wiped out.

Persecution to levels near genocide, new ACN report declares

I think we have at the same time seen a rise in descrimination and in some cases attacks and persecution on Christians in the west as well. In some ways similar to the Jews at present. There is definitely some spiritual warfare going on. And I think IMO this has risen at the same time the west has rejected God from the public square. In some ways resembling the pagan world of early Christians.

Aaron112 said:

I think instead the false religious leaders did not want true disciples to live.
The false religious leaders persuaded or forced or otherwise got the "pagan?" Romans to take sides against the faithful followers of Jesus.

Click to expand...

Maybe. I think they may have been two sides of the same coin. Both had a reason to deminish or get rid of Christians. Primarily Christ and Christians by extention represented the truth. Any other idea even religious was not the truth and therefore ultimately antiChrist.

As Christ said your either for me or against me and you can't serve two GOds. Whether that was pagan Rome with its politics and material wealth and human made gods or the political Jews who wanted religious power on earth. Or the false teachers who may have exploited everything just to undermine the truth.

I think usually the false teachers within the church have learnt all the tricks and can manipulate words and muddy the waters. They will latch onto any latest idea so long as its about their ideas and not any sacrifrice and submission or obedience to someone beyond themselves who they must bow to. Thats why they are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are good at what they do.