No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm talking about who Paul was intending to address regardless of who might read that letter. He was addressing anyone who fit the description of being holy and sharing in the heavenly calling. Do any unbelievers fit that description? Of course not. Is this all you can say in response to what I said? How about actually addressing the points that I made and answering my questions? I'll try again.

Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

How can someone who isn't a true believer depart from God if they have no relationship with God in the first place? Who else would be told to "exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin" except for true believers? That's not something you would say to someone who isn't a true believer. That is a warning to not become "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin", so it's obviously not a warning given to people who are already hardened. Also, verse 14 is not something that would be said to anyone but true believers because it is addressed to those who have steadfast "confidence" in Christ and talks about the need to hold (keep) it "to the end".

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zoidar said:

Thanks for the response A New Dawn. I will just address the Clement part for now. "all are glorified and magnified by HIS will" means glorification and magnification is the work of God. However you seem to assume God does this unconditionally, without man's cooperation and this is where I think you misunderstand Clement. You are still reading the quotes from Reformed lenses, instead of looking at it through the broader writings of the Church Fathers.

“but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. This can refer to a few different things. Probably it's referring to faith always been the only way to be justified, and it was like that from the very beginning. With that said you can't get the full meaning of the quotes without studying the Church Fathers' more closely. We need to get into their mindset. I wish I had studied the Church Fathers more myself. I mostly rely on what those who have studied them in dept say.

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A New Dawn said:

Thanks for insinuating that I don’t know how to read and understand things and that anything said at any point in time past, what?, 100 years?, 200 years? isn’t worth attending to, but all I get from you is that you will say and do anything to cling to your cherished belief that you have to be responsible for your own salvation.

I mean, forget that PAUL PREACHED IT in the Bible. Forget that many errors entered into the Catholic Church, to the point that the church needed reforming. I mean, perhaps you should consider that so many things the early church fathers said that were just downright wrong should speak to how much stock you you should put in them.

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A New Dawn said:

Thanks for insinuating that I don’t know how to read and understand things and that anything said at any point in time past, what?, 100 years?, 200 years? isn’t worth attending to, but all I get from you is that you will say and do anything to cling to your cherished belief that you have to be responsible for your own salvation.

I mean, forget that PAUL PREACHED IT in the Bible. Forget that many errors entered into the Catholic Church, to the point that the church needed reforming. I mean, perhaps you should consider that so many things the early church fathers said that were just downright wrong should speak to how much stock you you should put in them.

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zoidar said:

Of course it's worth attending to. It's just we can get things wrong if we focus on a few selected quotes from the Fathers instead of looking at the wider picture. We were discussing the Early Fathers. We can discuss Paul if you like. The Church Fathers are pointing to something that is important. Still they don't agree on everything and I don't think I agree with everything they say either. I just think it's important they are presented accurately.

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A New Dawn said:

And yet you went to great pains to ensure that anyone who read your post would come to the false conclusion you were postulating, that they never discussed the issue of total depravity.

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Brightfame52 said:

Jesus taught Tulip Truth. He said man doesnt have the ability to believe in Him Jn 6:44,65 that's total depravity

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zoidar said:

If they believed in Moses they would have been drawn to Jesus.

For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
— John 5:46-47

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A New Dawn said:

That is a stretch since, obviously, very few Jews believed in Jesus.

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