No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Brightfame52 · Monday at 12:24 PM

John 6 does not use the word “gift,” but it does say we should believe in Christ and we should eat the Bread of Life.

Eating presupposes life, and spiritual life at that, so that scripture is speaking of the regenerated, not the spiritual dead. Can you eat bread if you dead ?

A New Dawn · Monday at 12:56 PM

Jerry N. said:
Your use of John 6 is convincing, but what do you make of Hebrews 3:7-8 and Acts 7:51? One can resist the Holy Spirit. The problem is with time. From God’s point of view, everything is complete. From our point of view, we have a life full of decisions. Like the article I posted, we are not robots and have to make choices. God knows those choices, but we are responsible for them. If it was not so, damnation would not be our fault any more than salvation.

In Acts 7:51, Stephen is speaking to the Jewish leaders, the same people who refused to believe Jesus was the Messiah, and who continue to stubbornly refuse to believe it after His death. While God chooses whom He will save, He also, correctly, reminds them of their responsibility in their refusal to believe. Their inability due to the fall. Their rebellion.

In Hebrews 3, the writer is contrasting the New Covenant with the Law of Moses, how the New covenant is a superior covenant than the law and the different types of responses they draw from people. In OT times, they did not have the Holy Spirit to guide them, but now they do. But because they are addressing a Jewish audience who has lon believed the law was the path to salvation, how they address the matter is different.

Damnation IS our fault, no matter what. Adam, as our human representative before God, chose sin and rebellion, directly causing the fall and our damnation. We are ALL under that curse. God, in His mercy, chooses to save some. It is only because of His mercy and grace that we will get to spend eternity with Him. Not because of anything we have done.

And speaking to the issue of decisions to be made, the problem with your assertion is that many are saved against their desire to have nothing to do with Jesus or God. Saul/Paul is one example. And if you read many current personal testimonies, you will see the same phenomenon. My own testimony is of that nature. So, while Calvinism can include the slow, soul searching, studying for the truth type of conversions that one may think they have a hand in, your free-will belief does not encompass all those who have a “road to Damascus”-type experience.

A New Dawn · Monday at 1:17 PM

Jerry N. said:
I think Calvin would disagree. If you look at the hard work Calvin put into evangelism, he believed that there was a human element in the acceptance of Christ. This was both in the teaching and in the acceptance.

Can you show me an example. I really don’t follow Calvin, though I believe in the Bible and believe the Doctrines of Grace express the teachings of Grace-based salvation well. The Bible states that one must hear a in order to be saved, and that God gives saving faith, as I posted above.

Jerry N. · Monday at 1:18 PM

A New Dawn said:
In Acts 7:51, Stephen is speaking to the Jewish leaders, the same people who refused to believe Jesus was the Messiah, and who continue to stubbornly refuse to believe it after His death. While God chooses whom He will save, He also, correctly, reminds them of their responsibility in their refusal to believe. Their inability due to the fall. Their rebellion.

In Hebrews 3, the writer is contrasting the New Covenant with the Law of Moses, how the New covenant is a superior covenant than the law and the different types of responses they draw from people. In OT times, they did not have the Holy Spirit to guide them, but now they do. But because they are addressing a Jewish audience who has lon believed the law was the path to salvation, how they address the matter is different.

Damnation IS our fault, no matter what. Adam, as our human representative before God, chose sin and rebellion, directly causing the fall and our damnation. We are ALL under that curse. God, in His mercy, chooses to save some. It is only because of His mercy and grace that we will get to spend eternity with Him. Not because of anything we have done.

And speaking to the issue of decisions to be made, the problem with your assertion is that many are saved against their desire to have nothing to do with Jesus or God. Saul/Paul is one example. And if you read many current personal testimonies, you will see the same phenomenon. My own testimony is of that nature. So, while Calvinism can include the slow, soul searching, studying for the truth type of conversions that one may think they have a hand in, your free-will belief does not encompass all those who have a “road to Damascus”-type experience.

If salvation is not due to anything we have done, how is our damnation due to Adam who lived 6000 years ago? We are damned for our sins, and not for God’s choice to create us for damnation.

Jerry N. · Monday at 1:21 PM

A New Dawn said:
Can you show me an example. I really don’t follow Calvin, though I believe in the Bible and believe the Doctrines of Grace express the teachings of Grace-based salvation well. The Bible states that one must hear a in order to be saved, and that God gives saving faith, as I posted above.

Calvin encourage the preaching of the gospel, and he even sent missionaries to Brazil.

Brightfame52 · Monday at 1:25 PM

@Jerry N.

We are damned for our sins, and not for God’s choice to create us for damnation.

Both are true, The non elect are justly condemned to hell for their sins, and God created them for that, to contrast His creating the elect for mercy and salvation, all for His Glory

A New Dawn · Monday at 1:26 PM

Jerry N. said:
If salvation is not due to anything we have done, how is our damnation due to Adam who lived 6000 years ago? We are damned for our sins, and not for God’s choice to create us for damnation.

God didn’t create us for damnation. God looked at creation and called it good. We are damned for our sins because Adam chose to rebel.

Romans 5:12 (NASB95) Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

A New Dawn · Monday at 1:29 PM

Jerry N. said:
Calvin encourage the preaching of the gospel, and he even sent missionaries to Brazil.

What does that have to do with the discussion?

Most of the great evangelists have been Calvinists. What do evangelists do? They preach the gospel so it can be heard, because it is through hearing the gospel that God can work His work on our hearts.

Jerry N. · Monday at 1:32 PM

A New Dawn said:
God didn’t create us for damnation. God looked at creation and called it good. We are damned for our sins because Adam chose to rebel.

Romans 5:12 (NASB95) Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

So Adam had free will and we don't? It is time for bed, so I'll get back to you tomorrow afternoon.

A New Dawn · Monday at 1:38 PM

Jerry N. said:
So Adam had free will and we don't? It is time for bed, so I'll get back to you tomorrow afternoon.

Yes. Adam is the only person who walked and talked with God and lived with Him in glory (glory in this sense being defined as the absence of sin or the power and presence of sin)(pre-fall state). He, alone, had the power to make a free-will choice.

The only kind of choice we can make is out of our nature. Prior to being redeemed, we have a sinful nature, and can only choose from out of that nature. Only after we are redeemed and have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, can we make a choice out of our redeemed nature.

Brightfame52 · Monday at 1:41 PM

Jerry N. said:
So Adam had free will and we don't? It is time for bed, so I'll get back to you tomorrow afternoon.

Yep mans will became a servant of sin once we sinned in adam, because death was the wage for sin, that death put man under the slavery of sin.

zoidar · Monday at 5:48 PM

A New Dawn said:
Are you not reading what I am saying? I said specifically that what they wrote was not the same as the completed doctrine that Augustine or the Reformers laid out, but they were discussing the concept of total (yes, total) depravity/ability. Let me repost them here so you can see them again instead of just ignoring them.

I wonder how well read Dr. Michael Davidsson is on the Church Fathers. I couldn't find any information about him. It seems like he has been looking for quotes that support his position, without closer studying the whole letters.

From your Reformed lenses it may seem these quotes describe total depravity/total inability, but it's far from the truth. I made some comments under each quote.

Clement of Rome
“All therefore are glorified and magnified, not by themselves or their own works of righteous actions, which they have wrought out, but by his will,” (Clement, Ep. 1, ad. Corinth. p. 72.).
“‘not by ourselves, nor by our wisdom, or understanding, or piety, or the works which we have done in holiness of heart,’ but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen,”

Clement is saying we can not be righteous through out own actions, rather we need to turn to God through faith. He is demonstrating it's not by our righteous actions, but by faith.

Ignatius of Antioch
“They that are carnal,” says he, “cannot do the things that are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual do the things that are carnal, as neither faith the things of unbelief, nor unbelief the things of faith,” (Ep. ad Ephesians p. 22.).

This is the Pauline teaching the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. He is however not saying a carnal man can't turn to God to be a spiritual man.

Justin Martyr
“Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; that ‘we are born sinners;’ and that we are entirely flesh, and no good thing dwells in us; he asserts the weakness and disability of men either to understand or perform spiritual things, and denies that man, by the natural sharpness of his wit, can attain to the knowledge of divine things, or by any innate power in him save himself, and procure eternal life,” (Epist. ad Zenam, p. 506.).
“Having sometime before convinced us to of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save that which otherwise were impossible to be saved,” (Epist. ad Diognet. p. 500.)

Justin is saying we can't obtain eternal life on our own, we need Christ. He believes humans, aided by God’s grace can respond to Him. He's a strong proponent of free will.

Irenaeus of Lyons
Man, “will be justly condemned, because being made rational, ‘he has lost true reason,’ and lives irrationally, is contrary to the justice of God, giving himself up to every earthly spirit, and serves all pleasure,” (Adv. Haeres. 1. 4, c. 16, p. 460.).

Irenaeus is describing the situation of mankind. All have fallen in sin, and they will be judged accordingly (unless they repent).

Origen of Alexandria
“In Adam,56 as saith the word, all die, and are condemned in the likeness of Adam’s transgression, which the divine word says not so much of some one, as of all mankind — for the curse of Adam is common to all,” (Contr. Cels. 1. 4, p. 191.).
“Because our free will is not sufficient to have a clean heart, but we are in need of God, who creates such an one; therefore it is said by him, who knew how to pray, Create in me a clean heart, O God!”(Contr. Cels. 1. 5, 1, 7, p. 354.).

Origen describes the whole mankind fallen in sin through Adam. We can't by our own free will have a clean heart. It's only by the help of God, therefore we are to pray to God to create a clean heart in us.

Lactantius
“We, who before as blind men, and as shut up in the prison of folly, sat in darkness, ignorant of God and truth, are enlightened by God, who hath adopted us in his covenant, and being delivered from evil bonds, and brought into the light of wisdom, he hath took into the inheritance of the heavenly kingdom,” (Divin. Institut. 1. 4, c. 20, p. 328.).

Lactantius says everything is given by God. It's He who enlightens us, adopts us, gives us the inheritance and it's not by ourselves. It's through God and it's to Him we need to turn.

Athanasius of Alexandria
“The devil wrought sin from the beginning in the rational and understanding nature of man; for which reason it is impossible for nature, being rational, and willing, and being under the condemnation of death, to restore itself to liberty,” Athanas. contr. Arian. orat. 2, vol. 1. p. 358. de Salutar. adv. Jes. Christ. vol. 1. p. 638.).
“Concerning being one with God, ““This phrase in us is the same as if it was said, that they may be made one by the power of the Father and of the Son; or without God it is impossible that this can be done,” (Athanas. de Incarnatione, orat. 4, p. 474.)

Again it's the same theme. We our helpless without God and need to turn to Him. It's impossible to restore oneself to freedom and it's only through the aid of God.

A New Dawn · Monday at 6:15 PM

zoidar said:
I wonder how well read Dr. Michael Davidsson is on the Church Fathers. I couldn't find any information about him. It seems like he has been looking for quotes that support his position, without closer studying the whole letters.

From your Reformed lenses it may seem these quotes describe total depravity/total inability, but it's far from the truth. I made some comments under each quote.

Clement is saying we can not be righteous through out own actions, rather we need to turn to God through faith. He is demonstrating it's not by our righteous actions, but by faith.

This is the Pauline teaching the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. He is however not saying a carnal man can't turn to God to be a spiritual man.

Justin is saying we can't obtain eternal life on our own, we need Christ. He believes humans, aided by God’s grace can respond to Him. He's a strong proponent of free will.

Irenaeus is describing the situation of mankind. All have fallen in sin, and they will be judged accordingly (unless they repent).

Origen describes the whole mankind fallen in sin through Adam. We can't by our own free will have a clean heart. It's only by the help of God, therefore we are to pray to God to create a clean heart in us.

Lactantius says everything is given by God. It's He who enlightens us, adopts us, gives us the inheritance and it's not by ourselves. It's through God and it's to Him we need to turn.

Again it's the same theme. We our helpless without God and need to turn to Him. It's impossible to restore oneself to freedom and it's only through the aid of God.

It’s clear that you have no intention of having a real discussion when you either selectively edit out words from the quote to fit your narrative or put up lame excuses why the quotes can be disregarded.

zoidar · Monday at 6:57 PM

A New Dawn said:
It’s clear that you have no intention of having a real discussion when you either selectively edit out words from the quote to fit your narrative or put up lame excuses why the quotes can be disregarded.

Edit out words from the quotes?

It took me hours to make this response. I wanted to show what the quotes actually mean in context and what they don’t say. For example, I explained Justin’s stance to clearly show he isn't teaching total depravity.

A New Dawn · Monday at 9:43 PM

zoidar said:
Edit out words from the quotes?

It took me hours to make this response. I wanted to show what the quotes actually mean in context and what they don’t say. For example, I explained Justin’s stance to clearly show he isn't teaching total depravity.

For the very first quote, from Clement of Rome, you conveniently left out that he said “ all are glorified and magnified by HIS will”. Not our own. And “but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. You conveniently left that part out. The part that he gives us the faith we are justified with.

And for Ignatius of Antioch, that is the core teaching of total depravity. THE. CORE. TEACHING. Since turning to God is a spiritual activity, then it is obvious that that is something a carnal man can’t do.

Let’s go on.

Justin Martyr was saying that prior to Christ (and his saving work in us) we were born sinners and there was no good thing in us and it was IMPOSSIBLE to understand or perform spiritual things and had no innate power to save himself or attain eternal life.

Irenaeus of Lyons you were close as far as you went, but you stopped just short of what he meant by what he was saying. And it was the same as Paul said in Romans , and as Justin Martyr said. That because of man’s fallen nature, they cannot choose spiritual things.

Lactantius said we were blind, in darkness, on prison, and ignorant of God and truth, and God enlightened us, adopted us and delivered us from evil bonds and gave us wisdom. He is saying God took them while they were still in the throes of sin and regenerated them.

Athanasius said that because the devil wrought sin from the beginning, it is impossible for us to restore ourselves to liberty. And without God it is impossible for us to be one with Him.

What I’m NOT seeing is any one of them saying that it is a mutual decision or that God is only helping us along the road to salvation. ALL of them are say that man’s depravity prevents them from, not just needing help along the way, but that we don’t even know God or anything good because our hearts are too deceitful.

We don’t need for you to put your own spin on something we can clearly read for ourselves.

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 12:28 AM

zoidar said:
I wonder how well read Dr. Michael Davidsson is on the Church Fathers. I couldn't find any information about him. It seems like he has been looking for quotes that support his position, without closer studying the whole letters.

From your Reformed lenses it may seem these quotes describe total depravity/total inability, but it's far from the truth. I made some comments under each quote.

Clement is saying we can not be righteous through out own actions, rather we need to turn to God through faith. He is demonstrating it's not by our righteous actions, but by faith.

This is the Pauline teaching the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. He is however not saying a carnal man can't turn to God to be a spiritual man.

Justin is saying we can't obtain eternal life on our own, we need Christ. He believes humans, aided by God’s grace can respond to Him. He's a strong proponent of free will.

Irenaeus is describing the situation of mankind. All have fallen in sin, and they will be judged accordingly (unless they repent).

Origen describes the whole mankind fallen in sin through Adam. We can't by our own free will have a clean heart. It's only by the help of God, therefore we are to pray to God to create a clean heart in us.

Lactantius says everything is given by God. It's He who enlightens us, adopts us, gives us the inheritance and it's not by ourselves. It's through God and it's to Him we need to turn.

Again it's the same theme. We our helpless without God and need to turn to Him. It's impossible to restore oneself to freedom and it's only through the aid of God.

This is an excellent post. It probably won’t have any effect on the two adversaries in this thread, but I’m sure others who read it will appreciate your effort and learn. I certainly have. Thanks.

A New Dawn · Tuesday at 7:11 AM

Jerry N. said:
This is an excellent post. It probably won’t have any effect on the two adversaries in this thread, but I’m sure others who read it will appreciate your effort and learn. I certainly have. Thanks.

It’s not an excellent post. Someone referencing quotes that agree with their position is not uncommon at all. The point is, no matter who the author of the article is, those things were written by those people and the only reason someone would have to hide them (or refuse to reference them) is because the quotes disprove their theological (in this case) position.

Brightfame52 · Tuesday at 7:37 AM

zoidar said:
I wonder how well read Dr. Michael Davidsson is on the Church Fathers. I couldn't find any information about him. It seems like he has been looking for quotes that support his position, without closer studying the whole letters.

From your Reformed lenses it may seem these quotes describe total depravity/total inability, but it's far from the truth. I made some comments under each quote.

Clement is saying we can not be righteous through out own actions, rather we need to turn to God through faith. He is demonstrating it's not by our righteous actions, but by faith.

This is the Pauline teaching the flesh is against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. He is however not saying a carnal man can't turn to God to be a spiritual man.

Justin is saying we can't obtain eternal life on our own, we need Christ. He believes humans, aided by God’s grace can respond to Him. He's a strong proponent of free will.

Irenaeus is describing the situation of mankind. All have fallen in sin, and they will be judged accordingly (unless they repent).

Origen describes the whole mankind fallen in sin through Adam. We can't by our own free will have a clean heart. It's only by the help of God, therefore we are to pray to God to create a clean heart in us.

Lactantius says everything is given by God. It's He who enlightens us, adopts us, gives us the inheritance and it's not by ourselves. It's through God and it's to Him we need to turn.

Again it's the same theme. We our helpless without God and need to turn to Him. It's impossible to restore oneself to freedom and it's only through the aid of God.

This article exalts men and obviously denies that man by nature as the result of the fall in Adam are dead. The only thing now that can aide man is to be raised from the dead, and that's what Grace does Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

There is no Faith in a person dead in sin, Faith is a Gift of the Spirit and Grace

zoidar · Tuesday at 4:37 PM

A New Dawn said:
For the very first quote, from Clement of Rome, you conveniently left out that he said “ all are glorified and magnified by HIS will”. Not our own. And “but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. You conveniently left that part out. The part that he gives us the faith we are justified with.

And for Ignatius of Antioch, that is the core teaching of total depravity. THE. CORE. TEACHING. Since turning to God is a spiritual activity, then it is obvious that that is something a carnal man can’t do.

Let’s go on.

Justin Martyr was saying that prior to Christ (and his saving work in us) we were born sinners and there was no good thing in us and it was IMPOSSIBLE to understand or perform spiritual things and had no innate power to save himself or attain eternal life.

Irenaeus of Lyons you were close as far as you went, but you stopped just short of what he meant by what he was saying. And it was the same as Paul said in Romans , and as Justin Martyr said. That because of man’s fallen nature, they cannot choose spiritual things.

Lactantius said we were blind, in darkness, on prison, and ignorant of God and truth, and God enlightened us, adopted us and delivered us from evil bonds and gave us wisdom. He is saying God took them while they were still in the throes of sin and regenerated them.

Athanasius said that because the devil wrought sin from the beginning, it is impossible for us to restore ourselves to liberty. And without God it is impossible for us to be one with Him.

What I’m NOT seeing is any one of them saying that it is a mutual decision or that God is only helping us along the road to salvation. ALL of them are say that man’s depravity prevents them from, not just needing help along the way, but that we don’t even know God or anything good because our hearts are too deceitful.

We don’t need for you to put your own spin on something we can clearly read for ourselves.

Thanks for the response A New Dawn. I will just address the Clement part for now. "all are glorified and magnified by HIS will" means glorification and magnification is the work of God. However you seem to assume God does this unconditionally, without man's cooperation and this is where I think you misunderstand Clement. You are still reading the quotes from Reformed lenses, instead of looking at it through the broader writings of the Church Fathers.

“but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning”. This can refer to a few different things. Probably it's referring to faith always been the only way to be justified, and it was like that from the very beginning. With that said you can't get the full meaning of the quotes without studying the Church Fathers' more closely. We need to get into their mindset. I wish I had studied the Church Fathers more myself. I mostly rely on what those who have studied them in dept say.

Spiritual Jew · Tuesday at 6:57 PM

David Lamb said:
But the person dead in trespasses and sins is elsewhere described by Paul as "the natural man," about whom he wrote:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

That surely speaks of inability. He does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, and he cannot know them.

You need to learn how to interpret scripture in context. You and all other Calvinists take scripture out of context and misinterpret it constantly. That verse is not talking about the gospel or simple, basic biblical doctrine.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The context here is in relation to "the deep things of God" in particular. Even what Paul called "babes in Christ" in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 had trouble understanding the deep things of God, which Paul called "meat" or "solid food". He said even those "babes in Christ" were not ready for the meat or solid food of God's word. But, they understood the gospel and more basic things from scripture which Paul referred to as "milk". So, you cannot use 1 Corinthians 2:14 as evidence that those who are dead in sins (but, spiritually sick - Mark 2:16-17), have an inability to understand and respond to the gospel with repentance and faith.

No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Well-Known Member

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Well-Known Member

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Well-Known Member

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Well-Known Member

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Well-Known Member

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Amillennialist

Similar threads