No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

zoidar said:

I did not move the goalposts. I’m making an important distinction. The Early Fathers certainly taught the human fall from sin, human weakness and sinfulness and the need for grace to be saved. No one denies that. But the specific doctrine of total depravity by the Reformers, that human nature is so corrupted by the fall that we are incapable to turn to God apart from irresistible grace, was not taught by the pre-Nicene Fathers.

This is not just my personal opinion. It’s in consensus with academic scholars. The Fathers quoted also strongly affirm human freedom which shows they did not hold the doctrine of total depravity.

Why is this so important? If the Early Fathers didn't hold the doctrine of total depravity (the way Reformers do), then most likely neither did Paul.

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A New Dawn said:

Only the worst of the worst people see their depravity. And, again, that is using it in the secular sense. In the Biblical sense, most people don’t see their depravity (or inability) because most people feel they are living good lives. But the Bible is quick to point out that our good deeds are as filthy rags when it comes to how clean you need to be to come before God.

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Jerry N. said:

I don’t agree that “only the worst of the worst people see their depravity.” The introspection may well be the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is even evident in Jung’s Id.

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A New Dawn said:

You’re sidestepping the point. You can’t use secular definitions to understand salvific principles.

I don’t disagree that God works in people’s lives in a quiet and thoughtfully introspective way (not everyone has a “road to Damascus” experience), but the point is that it is God who makes the first move in all cases, because our inability is total. Romans 3 is more than clear regarding the matter.

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Jerry N. said:

I don’t have any problem with the idea that “God makes the first move.” I think that is the predestination part of the process. I do think we have a choice to respond or not. That is the free will side of the process. God sometimes makes it difficult to refuse, and this might include being blinded and knocked down. In my own testimony, God lead in a hundred quiet and thoughtfully introspective ways, so I agree. When the way of salvation was presented to me, it seemed obvious. I have met people who heard God’s call to salvation and knew they would not hear the call again if they refused.

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A New Dawn said:

I have never heard what you described in your last sentence above. I don’t believe that to be true, though I guess it is possible they believed it. But John 6 is clear that God has designated a people for Himself and gave them to Christ to be saved, to which Jesus said he will not lose one. I don’t believe you can refuse the gift of salvation because the work is already done and you are already a new person, but if you could (and again, I don’t know why anyone would want to), if you are one of the ones God has chosen to be His people, Christ would pursue you till He completes the will of the Father.

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Brightfame52 said:

@Jerry N.


Well before a person is made alive by grace, which is Gods Gift, they dead in sin. They cant hear, see do noting spiritually. Now when Grace makes alive, technically you are then saved and able to see, and hear things spiritually

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Jerry N. said:

I understand what you mean, but I don’t think you are saved until you accept the gift of salvation. It is a gift after all, and one does not have to accept gifts, no matter how wonderful they are. I don’t see what you mean in John 6, because both God’s choice and man’s acceptance are mentioned. I’m sure that God’s gift of forgiveness can be irresistible, but it would undermine the whole idea of evangelism if it was always true. God would save you no matter what man does, but we are called to preach the gospel.

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A New Dawn said:

The early church fathers are not the be all and end all of what is or is not true Christian teaching.

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A New Dawn said:

If total depravity was taught in the Bible and the early church fathers were discussing it, then one must acknowledge that there are certain ramifications of those teachings, and it appears that they were not willing to go there. There are many errors that were made in the teachings of what became the Catholic Church and that is why the Reformation was necessary and important.

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zoidar said:

That is of course true!


I don't know what you mean by total depravity being discussed in 100 AD. I don't think it was discussed until Augustine came into the picture. What was discussed in 100 AD was very different than the doctrine of total depravity. Some might say the seeds for total depravity was planted 100 AD, but I don't think a strong case can be made for it.

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A New Dawn said:

Did you even look at the link I included?

If they were writing about total depravity, they were talking about it, even if it wasn’t the fully formed concept that came about during the Reformation. You can’t just ignore that they were talking about it when there is proof they were.

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A New Dawn said:

How can you accept what you already are? It’s like accepting your mother’s gift to you of blue eyes. How can you accept or reject it? It’s who you are.

The point of evangelism is because God decided that hearing the gospel was the method He would use to work on someone’s heart.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (NASB95) For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Can you give me the verse in John 6 that says man has to accept the gift? Thanks.

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Jerry N. said:

John 6 does not use the word “gift,” but it does say we should believe in Christ and we should eat the Bread of Life. Believing, like love, is partly an act of the will. Accepting food and eating it is also an act of the will. Like I wrote before, it is not binary. Predestination and free will are entangled, so the act of accepting Christ is not a work we can include as working for our own salvation. As far as I know, the Reformation idea of predestination was to refute the idea that our good works of charity and kindness will earn us salvation. John 5:40 says to the Pharisees, “But you are not willing to come to me to have life.” Two things are happening: They are not led by God, and they have rejected Christ. Both the divine and human are involved. You haven’t responded to why we should evangelize if no work of man is involved.

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zoidar said:

Of course I looked at it. They were not writing about total depravity, they were writing about human depravity and that is what they discussed. Don't you see the difference? Do the quotes somewhere say a man is totally unable and needs to be generated by God first to respond? No, they don't! The Early Fathers taught nothing like that so how can you call what the Church Fathers discussed TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

I can grant you that they spoke in ways that contained seeds of what Augustine later developed into the doctrine of total depravity, but not the doctrine itself. It was wrong of me to say otherwise. Seeds though can be developed in many directions. The Eastern church never developed the doctrine of total depravity like the Western church did.

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“All therefore are glorified and magnified, not by themselves or their own works of righteous actions, which they have wrought out, but by his will,” (Clement, Ep. 1, ad. Corinth. p. 72.).
“‘not by ourselves, nor by our wisdom, or understanding, or piety, or the works which we have done in holiness of heart,’ but by faith by which God Almighty hath justified all from the beginning, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen,”

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“They that are carnal,” says he, “cannot do the things that are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual do the things that are carnal, as neither faith the things of unbelief, nor unbelief the things of faith,” (Ep. ad Ephesians p. 22.).

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“Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; that ‘we are born sinners;’ and that we are entirely flesh, and no good thing dwells in us; he asserts the weakness and disability of men either to understand or perform spiritual things, and denies that man, by the natural sharpness of his wit, can attain to the knowledge of divine things, or by any innate power in him save himself, and procure eternal life,” (Epist. ad Zenam, p. 506.).
“Having sometime before convinced us to of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save that which otherwise were impossible to be saved,” (Epist. ad Diognet. p. 500.)

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Man, “will be justly condemned, because being made rational, ‘he has lost true reason,’ and lives irrationally, is contrary to the justice of God, giving himself up to every earthly spirit, and serves all pleasure,” (Adv. Haeres. 1. 4, c. 16, p. 460.).

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“In Adam,56 as saith the word, all die, and are condemned in the likeness of Adam’s transgression, which the divine word says not so much of some one, as of all mankind — for the curse of Adam is common to all,” (Contr. Cels. 1. 4, p. 191.).
“Because our free will is not sufficient to have a clean heart, but we are in need of God, who creates such an one; therefore it is said by him, who knew how to pray, Create in me a clean heart, O God!”(Contr. Cels. 1. 5, 1, 7, p. 354.).

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“We, who before as blind men, and as shut up in the prison of folly, sat in darkness, ignorant of God and truth, are enlightened by God, who hath adopted us in his covenant, and being delivered from evil bonds, and brought into the light of wisdom, he hath took into the inheritance of the heavenly kingdom,” (Divin. Institut. 1. 4, c. 20, p. 328.).

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“The devil wrought sin from the beginning in the rational and understanding nature of man; for which reason it is impossible for nature, being rational, and willing, and being under the condemnation of death, to restore itself to liberty,” Athanas. contr. Arian. orat. 2, vol. 1. p. 358. de Salutar. adv. Jes. Christ. vol. 1. p. 638.).
“Concerning being one with God, ““This phrase in us is the same as if it was said, that they may be made one by the power of the Father and of the Son; or without God it is impossible that this can be done,” (Athanas. de Incarnatione, orat. 4, p. 474.).

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Jerry N. said:

Regarding salvation and evangelism, Calvin’s view was not too different from what I have been trying to write. Here is a quote from an article on Calvin: “For Calvinists believe that every sinner who would be saved must actually believe, and he must do this himself. Furthermore, we understand Scripture to clearly teach that no one gets saved apart from the gospel, and almost always people must be involved in spreading that gospel.” (My underlining)

Calvinism & Evangelism

Perhaps you are familiar with this parable concerning the difficulties of affirming both man’s free will and God’s all-encompassing sovereignty. A sign above the door to Heaven boldly p…

www.fundamentallyreformed.com

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A New Dawn said:

So, John 6 doesn’t say anything about accepting or rejecting salvation.

This is the process laid out in John 6:
John 6:37 (NASB95) “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:38 (NASB95) “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:39 (NASB95) “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:44 (NASB95) “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 (NASB95) And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

That is the clearest statement in the Bible about who is chosen for salvation, what Jesus’ purpose for his incarnation was, what the will of the Father was, and Jesus’s ability to complete the Father’s will. IOW, GOD chooses who will be saved. God gives those people to Jesus to be saved. God draws the people to Jesus and Jesus saves ALL of them, losing none. Jesus said on the cross “IT IS FINISHED”. There is no accepting or refusing mentioned. If God chooses you for salvation, you will be saved. IT IS FINISHED.

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A New Dawn said:

I am not sure who the person is who wrote that article, or what his theological persuasion is, but I believe he is in error on that statement you quoted. Calvinists believe you must HEAR first. Hearing is not the same as believing. Ephesians 2 is quite clear that faith is a gift of God, and I doubt that any Calvinist would say otherwise.

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