Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

Aldebaran · Saturday at 1:15 PM

Bradskii said:
No. No, that's a monstrously stupid argument. You are literally saying that if bad people break the law then it's a waste of time having the laws in the first place.

But wait...

Are you trying to hint at a solution without being seen to be supporting stricter regulations? Are you suggesting that gun licenses can be revoked if someone doesn't obey whatever rules and regs we choose to place on the owners of guns? If you are drunk in charge of a car there are sever punishments. You will lose your license and possibly your liberty. Are you saying that we do the same for guns?

Let's go along with those ideas for a second. Gun license revoked---what prevents the person from using the gun any more than a revoked driver's license prevents someone from driving?
As for those "severe punishments" for driving drunk, there are people who have been caught driving drunk 10 or more times and still keep doing it. So it looks like your car solutions for guns are rather ineffective. And that's for a large item (a car) with a license plate on it that can be spotted by police far more easily than a gun. If we can't keep drunks from driving a car, how are you going to apply the same rules to guns and expect that a person who intends to do a mass shooting from doing so?

Aldebaran · Saturday at 1:18 PM

Bradskii said:
One thing it would obviously do is make the teacher the first target.

I've taught at my grandson's school. There are protocols to follow if there is any danger such as a possible shooter. You lock down immediately. What you most definitely don't do is leave the kids alone and wander the corridors looking for the problem.

They've always been the first target anyway. Eliminate the adults, and then the children are so much easier of a target. Even in Minneapolis, 3 adults were hit even though the main target of the gunMAN was children.

Aldebaran · Saturday at 1:21 PM

Postvieww said:
Below is a lot of information about the shooter and his mind set . Make your own conclusions but this definitely is not just a simple take the guns issue .

Manifesto Contents — Key Details

1.
Here’s what has been confirmed about the contents of the manifesto left by Robin Westman, the shooter in the Annunciation Catholic Church tragedy on August 27, 2025:

Manifesto Contents — Key Details

1.
Personal Reflections & Mental State

Westman opened the manifesto with:
“I don’t expect forgiveness … to my family and those close to me, I do apologize for the effects my actions will have on your lives.”
The writing continues with clarifying sentiments such as: “I have wanted this for so long. I am not well. I am not right. … I am severely depressed and have been suicidal for years. … Only recently have I lost all hope and decided to perform my final action against this world.”

2.

Visual Depictions & Symbolism

Videos showcased Westman’s arsenal of firearms and ammunition, inscribed with hateful and extremist messages. These included phrases like “kill Donald Trump,” “6 million wasn’t enough” (referencing Holocaust denial), and other antisemitic, anti-Catholic, and racist slogans

3.

Ids of Infamy & Admiration of Other Shooters

Names of infamous mass shooters—such as Adam Lanza, Anders Behring Breivik, Robert Bowers, Brenton Tarrant, James Holmes, among others—were written on the magazines and gear. Westman appeared fascinated or inspired by past perpetrators.

4.

Plans & Tactical Content

The manifesto included diagrams or a hand-drawn layout of the church, along with journals possibly written in Cyrillic script—suggesting planning and mapping for the attack.

5.

Hate Across Many Targets

Authorities noted expressions of hatred toward every group except other mass shooters. Westman explicitly targeted Black people, Mexican people, Christians, Jewish people, Catholics, and even President Trump, marking these sentiments both in the written journals and on the weaponry.

6.

Complex Identity Conflict

In personal writings, Westman expressed deep internal conflict concerning gender identity—describing regret over transitioning and ambivalence about identifying fully as male or female. Phrases like “tired of being trans” and “I know I am not a woman but I definitely don’t feel like a man” appeared.

7.

Timing & Targeting

The manifesto and videos were released on YouTube shortly before the shooting to coincide with the school’s first Mass of the academic year—a deliberate act intended to target children during a vulnerable moment.

In Summary

Yes, Robin Westman left a manifesto—handwritten and recorded in videos.

It included personal expressions of despair, diagrams of the attack site, inscriptions on weapons glorifying mass shooters, violent and hateful messages toward multiple groups, and conflicted reflections on gender identity.

It showcased a premeditated attack, motivated by internal turmoil as much as by extremist ideology.

e been suicidal for years. … Only recently have I lost all hope and decided to perform my final action against this world.”

Weird how this guy didn't blame his "assault weapon" with high-cap magazines for making him do this, but those who want guns banned do.

o_mlly · Saturday at 1:24 PM

durangodawood said:
Believing wrong things is different from having mental/emotional deficiencies.

Are you now arguing that someone who believes that the sun orbits the earth is equivalent to one who believes he may intentionally take the lives of innocent people?

durangodawood said:
For instance there were plenty of Nazis or even Bolsheviks who had fully functioning mental and emotional apparatus. The problem was bad understanding of who is the enemy, and wildly misplaced optimism about the possibilities for glory.

A commonality between the Nazis and Bolsheviks was their ungodliness.

How does one conclude that either had full possession of their mental "apparatus"? The Nazis murdered millions; so did the Bolsheviks and their devolution into Communists the same. Are genocidal acts those of normal human beings?

durangodawood said:
Lots of healthy people get caught up in a culture of believing wrong things to the point that they commit what in hindsight are atrocities. History has shown this over and over.

Healthy people? Lots of them? Hindsight? I don't think so. Those genocidal atrocities were and are just that; before, after, and forever. Only an unhealthy mind would try to label them as simply wrong headed, only "believing wrong things".

Christians know why these atrocities happen. We call it Original Sin. And. those who commit such heinous acts have rejected the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ.

Valletta · Saturday at 1:59 PM

Aldebaran said:
Let's go along with those ideas for a second. Gun license revoked---what prevents the person from using the gun any more than a revoked driver's license prevents someone from driving?
As for those "severe punishments" for driving drunk, there are people who have been caught driving drunk 10 or more times and still keep doing it. So it looks like your car solutions for guns are rather ineffective. And that's for a large item (a car) with a license plate on it that can be spotted by police far more easily than a gun. If we can't keep drunks from driving a car, how are you going to apply the same rules to guns and expect that a person who intends to do a mass shooting from doing so?

Here's an example:

East High shooting suspect was already on probation for 'ghost gun' incident: Sources

CBS News Colorado has learned via multiple law enforcement sources that the suspect in the shooting of two East High School administrators was arrested in 2021 for possession of a so-called "ghost gun" and possessing an extended gun magazine.

www.cbsnews.com

JosephZ · Saturday at 2:26 PM

Aldebaran said:
Let's go along with those ideas for a second. Gun license revoked---what prevents the person from using the gun any more than a revoked driver's license prevents someone from driving?
As for those "severe punishments" for driving drunk, there are people who have been caught driving drunk 10 or more times and still keep doing it. So it looks like your car solutions for guns are rather ineffective. And that's for a large item (a car) with a license plate on it that can be spotted by police far more easily than a gun. If we can't keep drunks from driving a car, how are you going to apply the same rules to guns and expect that a person who intends to do a mass shooting from doing so?

I'm not proud of it, but in February 1987 I was caught drinking and driving, and my license was revoked for a year. Later I was caught driving with a revoked license. I received a suspended sentence of 181 days confinement with 5 years probation. My attorney informed me at the time that if I got caught driving again, I would be confined for a minimum of 181 days, and if I got caught drinking and driving again, it would be at least a year. Combine that with the financial costs involved, and that was enough for me to decide to stop driving completely until my license was restored. I would think this would also be the case with most people, but of course there will always be a few that will continue to ignore the laws and the possible consequences of breaking them.

When it comes to guns, it's important that laws be enforced, strict penalties be in place, and a zero-tolerance policy be in place when it comes to any crimes where a gun is involved.

Aldebaran said:
Weird how this guy didn't blame his "assault weapon" with high-cap magazines for making him do this, but those who want guns banned do.

Since you seem to care what people who gun down children have to say, the shooter did mention how "shockingly east" it was for him to obtain a gun.

JosephZ · Saturday at 2:58 PM

Valletta said:
You keep talking laws, Chicago and Washington D.C. have strict laws but not putting the violent lawbreakers in jail is the problem.

Chicago is a perfect example of why there needs to be stricter gun control laws on a national level. The majority of guns used in Chicago crimes come from outside the city and from across the border in Indiana, which has some of the weakest gun laws in the country – ranking 27th in the country for gun law strength in Everytown’s 2024 Gun Law Rankings.

Most guns used to commit crimes in cities like Washington DC, Baltimore, and New York, where strict gun laws are in place, also come from outside these cities and from other states.

If there were universal background checks on all gun purchases and transfers, including private transfers; multi-day waiting periods on all gun purchases; a requirement for training and proficiency tests for the type of gun being purchased; etc., then the number of shootings in Chicago as well as schools and other public places throughout the country would drop substantially. That's not to say that stronger gun control is the only answer when it comes to gun violence; there also needs to be increased spending on mental health services and treatment, and increased penalties for people who commit a crime when there's a gun involved.

Valletta · Saturday at 3:24 PM

JosephZ said:
Chicago is a perfect example of why there needs to be stricter gun control laws on a national level. The majority of guns used in Chicago crimes come from outside the city and from across the border in Indiana, which has some of the weakest gun laws in the country – ranking 27th in the country for gun law strength in Everytown’s 2024 Gun Law Rankings.

View attachment 369346

Most guns used to commit crimes in cities like Washington DC, Baltimore, and New York, where strict gun laws are in place, also come from outside these cities and from other states.

If there were universal background checks on all gun purchases and transfers, including private transfers; multi-day waiting periods on all gun purchases; a requirement for training and proficiency tests for the type of gun being purchased; etc., then the number of shootings in Chicago as well as schools and other public places throughout the country would drop substantially. That's not to say that stronger gun control is the only answer when it comes to gun violence; there also needs to be increased spending on mental health services and treatment, and increased penalties for people who commit a crime when there's a gun involved.

I remember a survey of Cook County inmates who said the majority of guns came from within their network of criminals. If you took away the guns of everyone in Indiana then it would be the next easiest source. If you took away all of the guns in the nation from legal owners the criminals would still get guns, whether from 3D printing or foreign sources. Liberal crime and education policies are much more responsible for these crimes than inanimate objects. Those policies need to be changed.

Freth · Saturday at 4:27 PM

Guns

I own ten or more guns (I lost count). In Ohio, for every gun I purchased at a dealer, I had to fill out a form and go through a government background check before taking delivery. The process in place is plenty. The form asks about felonies, mental illness, etc. If you lie on the form, you will most likely be arrested and serve jail time.

I had a concealed carry permit for ten years before the concealed carry law went into effect in Ohio, to allow concealed carry without a permit. I haven't noticed a significant increase in gun crime since the law went into effect. Short-term, I think crime has gone down, but it has only been three years.

Societal Changes

Many of us remember the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, and how it was different. In my own lifetime I've seen how media has shaped society. The internet opened the flood gates, and now we're reaping the outcome of decades of unchecked sickness and sin.

I don't think there is anything we can do to put the genie back in the bottle. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I think history gives us plenty of perspective on what went wrong, if we have the hindsight to see.

As Days of Noah

Prophecy is being fulfilled. 2 Timothy 3:1-7 describes today's society to a tee. What we are seeing today is, "as the days of Noah." It should be a wake-up call to all Christians that the end is near, even at the door.

SabbathBlessings · Saturday at 4:35 PM

Freth said:
Guns

I own ten or more guns (I lost count). In Ohio, for every gun I purchased at a dealer, I had to fill out a form and go through a government background check before taking delivery. The process in place is plenty. The form asks about felonies, mental illness, etc. If you lie on the form, you will most likely be arrested and serve jail time.

I had a concealed carry permit for ten years before the concealed carry law went into effect in Ohio, to allow concealed carry without a permit. I haven't noticed a significant increase in gun crime since the law went into effect. Short-term, I think crime has gone down, but it has only been three years.

Societal Changes

Many of us remember the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's, and how it was different. In my own lifetime I've seen how media has shaped society. The internet opened the flood gates, and now we're reaping the outcome of decades of unchecked sickness and sin.

I don't think there is anything we can do to put the genie back in the bottle. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I think history gives us plenty of perspective on what went wrong, if we have the hindsight to see.

As Days of Noah

Prophecy is being fulfilled. 2 Timothy 3:1-7 describes today's society to a tee. What we are seeing today is, "as the days of Noah." It should be a wake-up call to all Christians that the end is near, even at the door.

I am all for the 2nd amendment, but in my opinion, in order to carry a gun, one needs to be mentally fit. Peace officers all have to take a psychological screening in order to become an officer of the law and carry a gun. They should make this requirement for citizens and hold them personally responsible for their guns to safely lock them up so mentally un-fit people do not have access to them.

I know this will never happen though.

Agree, prophecy is being fulfilled and will continue to get worse like birth pains.

LizaMarie · Saturday at 5:38 PM

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Alternatively, people between 18 & 21 should start a mass civil disobedience campaign and refuse to abide by alcohol laws. If they're old enough to buy a gun, they're old enough to buy a beer.

Now you can't buy cigarettes until you are 21!

Bradskii · Saturday at 6:11 PM

dogs4thewin said:
...people that can be trusted with guns should not have to be punished for the few who cannot.

This is a comment that makes me want to weep. Children are being massacred and you are concerned about your rights.

It's shamefull.

Bradskii · Saturday at 6:19 PM

Aldebaran said:
Let's go along with those ideas for a second. Gun license revoked---what prevents the person from using the gun any more than a revoked driver's license prevents someone from driving?

Do you want to lose your gun license or car license? Do you think that hey, another couple of beers before I drive home won't hurt because if I lose my license I can still drive. Gee, there's a speed limit of 40mph but nobody can stop me driving at 100mph! Actually nobody can stop me robbing a bank or shooting my neighbour.

You really don't realise how stupid the 'argument' is that you're trying to to present.

Aldebaran said:
...how are you going to apply the same rules to guns and expect that a person who intends to do a mass shooting from doing so?

It's not that you have no idea how to stop the carnage. You don't want to because it means it will be inconvenient for you to have more regulations. Dead children are the price you'll accept for the status quo.

JosephZ · Saturday at 6:20 PM

Valletta said:
Liberal crime and education policies are much more responsible for these crimes than inanimate objects. Those policies need to be changed.

When you remove firearm-related homicides, the United States' non-firearm homicide rate is within the same range as other developed countries. The number of guns and the ease of acquiring them in the US is the primary difference between us and them. It's crystal clear that our gun policies need to be strengthened.

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · Saturday at 6:40 PM

Valletta said:
In this case the shooter had three guns and the shooting went on for minutes. There was no report of anyone in the church being armed so they could shoot back. That could have saved some victims. Additionally, as I have said before, the violent rhetoric in this country needs to be stopped. Voting for leaders who spout violence or preach hatred makes the voters complicit.

Or made a bigger mess. I do believe gun training would help.

JosephZ · Saturday at 7:08 PM

Valletta said:
I remember a survey of Cook County inmates who said the majority of guns came from within their network of criminals. If you took away the guns of everyone in Indiana then it would be the next easiest source.

While it may be true that the majority of guns that the individual criminals acquired came from within their network, most of those guns came from out of state, half of those from Indiana. This is why having strong gun laws at the federal level is so important. Crimes committed with firearms and firearm-related deaths would plummet in Chicago and across the rest of the country if every state were required to have the same gun laws as California.

The Cook County Jail Pilot Survey

Most of the 99 respondents offered some account of how guns were getting into their neighborhood, although often prefaced with a statement such as “I don't know.” Some Rs were clearly better informed than others. R42 gave a brief lecture that appears quite accurate:

“Several ways actually…there's probably only one gun store that's located throughout the whole city of Chicago which is famous. It's Chuck's Gun Store…. ut as far as Chicago it's so close to Indiana and in Indiana … there's gun laws but it's easier to get access to guns in Indiana so most people either go to the down-South states or go to ndiana to get guns or people obtain gun licenses, go to the store and then resell.”

Our recent research on retail sources of guns recovered by the Chicago Police Department tells a similar story (Cook et al., 2015): of new (less than two years old) guns recovered from gang members, 60% originated from out of state – half in Indiana – and of the remaining 40%, most originated in suburban Cook County, with Chuck's playing a dominant role.

ThatRobGuy · Saturday at 7:28 PM

JosephZ said:
When you remove firearm-related homicides, the United States' non-firearm homicide rate is within the same range as other developed countries. The number of guns and the ease of acquiring them in the US is the primary difference between us and them. It's crystal clear that our gun policies need to be strengthened.

View attachment 369353

There are certain areas that certainly need to be strengthened...

But like I noted, if it did pass, people would need to give it time to work before immediately pushing for additional restrictions.

I've stated before that I'm a fan of this model

Gun law in the Czech Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A few other aspects that people don't talk about, is that the trend of homicides also trends very closely with the amount of street gang membership per capita. (even more closely than it trends with the gun ownership rates)

I've been having some fun running statistical analysis with some AI tools

Slope → On average, for every +1 gang member per 100k population, the homicide rate rises by about 0.034 per 100k.

Put differently: an extra 100 gang members per 100k is associated with ~+3.4 homicides per 100k.

Gang Membership (per 100k):

USA: ~255
UK: ~42
Czech Republic: ~28

Country	Homicide Rate (per 100,000)
United States	5.9 (2023), 4.97 (2024 est.)
United Kingdom	0.95 (YE March 2024)
Czech Republic	0.77 (2023)

You can see where that trend lines up pretty closely.
(Despite the fact that the Czech Republic's gun laws are much closer to ours than they are to the UKs)

That's where a different "risk calculation" comes into play for a lot of people. (myself included)

In my area, I'm almost 60 times more likely to be the victim of attempted assault than I am of gun homicide.

I'll use more rounded numbers just as an example.

If I have a 1/30 chance of someone trying to rob me or hurt me
vs.
A one in 1/2000 chance of someone trying to murder me

If the availability of guns only increases those chances of the latter to 1/900... that's still not a compelling enough reason to leave myself unprepared for the way more likely former scenario.

For lack of a better analogy, it'd be like asking someone to give up their fire extinguisher because having fire extinguishers triples the chances of someone getting hurt by an exploding fire extinguisher. A household fire that I'll need it for is way more likely than one exploding.

Valletta · Saturday at 9:07 PM

JosephZ said:
When you remove firearm-related homicides, the United States' non-firearm homicide rate is within the same range as other developed countries. The number of guns and the ease of acquiring them in the US is the primary difference between us and them. It's crystal clear that our gun policies need to be strengthened.

No, what is clear is that the liberal approach to crime has failed. No cash bail, defund the police and send psychologists, no punishment for misdemeanors or stealing less than a thousand dollars at a time, strict gun control laws--all a disaster. I mile or so from where I lived is the most dangerous stop on the most dangerous light rail system in the country, all due to liberal policies. Chicago is a poster child for liberalism:

Don't blame Indiana for crime or not properly educating Chicago teens.

Bradskii · Saturday at 9:13 PM

Valletta said:
No, what is clear is that the liberal approach to crime has failed.

I think you mis-posted this. It has absolutely nothing to do with the thread or the post to which you replied.

durangodawood · Saturday at 11:04 PM

o_mlly said:
Are you now arguing that someone who believes that the sun orbits the earth is equivalent to one who believes he may intentionally take the lives of innocent people?

People need to be held accountable for where their wrong beliefs lead. Does geocentrism lead people to commit some atrocity or other? I dont think so. But other wrong beliefs certainly do.

o_mlly said:
How does one conclude that either had full possession of their mental "apparatus"? The Nazis murdered millions; so did the Bolsheviks and their devolution into Communists the same. Are genocidal acts those of normal human beings?

Thats precisely what Im saying. The Nazi and bolshevik atrocities were so broad in scope that they required the participation of normal people. The leadership couldn't just recruit from a tiny mentally ill minority. Normal people are induced to come on board by threats, but even moreso by ideological indoctrination re exactly who the enemy is.

Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

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