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This sounds crazy. The Holy Spirit saves us Titus3:5-6
Of course we are saved by the Holy Spirit, but we don’t receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until after we accept Christ. Are you saying that I was saved before I asked Jesus for forgiveness and salvation? That doesn’t fit with the book of Acts. When was Paul saved?
I doubt it, but ok. Maybe you can show the evidence?
Maybe Calvinism should be called Augustinianism instead of the other way around.
You sound confused to me, and I dont know anything about you. This is about Jesus said no man can believe on Him, they dont have the ability.
Yes, it does matter. Jesus said that the Jews of his generation will be under a greater judgment. He said that the Ninevites will stand in judgment against them.
This doesn't prove that Jews and Gentiles share guilt in the same measure. Jesus called only his own generation of Jews "a wicked and adulterous generation" because they wanted signs. Gentiles believed without signs. They did not carry all the guilt the Jews carried.
The Gentiles weren't under the law (Romans 2:14; 1 Corinthians 9:20-22).
I thought Calvinists deny that "all the world" means everybody? ?????
Verse 8 clearly tells us who didn't that didn't understand. It was the Jewish rulers who crucified Christ. Therefore, the contrast is not between the saved and the unsaved, but the Jewish rulers who couldn't understand the things of the Spirit of God and the apostles to whom the things of the Spirit was revealed.
Its the natural man that doesnt receive the the things of God, it doesnt matter the ethnicity lol
Here is an article that demonstrates that the concept of total depravity was around long before Augustine.I doubt it, but ok. Maybe you can show the evidence?
Maybe Calvinism should be called Augustinianism instead of the other way around.
The link is very good and explains total depravity doctrine well. Here is a refuting article: REFUTING TOTAL DEPRAVITY
The argument in that article is based on a secular definition of depravity rather than a biblical definition of it. Total depravity, biblically, means total inability. You can’t speak about biblical doctrine using secular definitions because they are part of fallen society, under the same influences as the rest of the fallen world.
Right, my point is that the argument between free well and predestination is always presented as binary. The person drowning would call out if they knew help was nearby or not. Just as our instincts force us to cry for help, the Holy Spirit has been influencing the unsaved person to see that they are in trouble with their soul. Many philosophers have recognized that people see their depravity, but only some people choose to do something about it. That doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit’s leading cannot be rejected. They might choose Hinduism or something else. The interaction between man’s free will and God’s predestination is not binary. Both come into play, but God gets all of the glory.
The article demonstrates there were some kind of depravity before Augustine, but not that it was taught the way Calvinists understand total depravity. From what I have read there is a consensus among academic scholars the pre-Nicene Fathers did not hold to the classic Calvinistic view of total depravity but that they were strong proponents of human free will.
You moved the goalposts. You said the belief in total depravity didn’t exist till Augustine and I responded that total depravity was recognized far earlier than Augustine, and you asked for proof, and I gave it. Now you are saying that just because they recognized it doesn’t mean they believed in it in the Calvinist way. It doesn’t matter. Total depravity was recognized and discussed as early as 100 AD. And Paul preached it all over the place. I don't know why you feel you need to draw lines in the sand about when the earliest discussion of it was. It was preached by Paul in the Bible.The article demonstrates there were some kind of depravity before Augustine, but not that it was taught the way Calvinists understand total depravity. From what I have read there is a consensus among academic scholars the pre-Nicene Fathers did not hold to the classic Calvinistic view of total depravity but that they were strong proponents of human free will.
Here are quite a few quotes from the Early Fathers showing they held to free will.
Only the worst of the worst people see their depravity. And, again, that is using it in the secular sense. In the Biblical sense, most people don’t see their depravity (or inability) because most people feel they are living good lives. But the Bible is quick to point out that our good deeds are as filthy rags when it comes to how clean you need to be to come before God.
I did not move the goalposts. I’m making an important distinction. The Early Fathers certainly taught the human fall from sin, human weakness and sinfulness and the need for grace to be saved. No one denies that. But the specific doctrine of total depravity by the Reformers, that human nature is so corrupted by the fall that we are incapable to turn to God apart from irresistible grace, was not taught by the pre-Nicene Fathers.
