Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

Valletta · Thursday at 9:38 AM

JosephZ said:
You probably can, but what about the average low-life who wants to shoot up a classroom full of kids or a place of worship? Or someone who gets kicked out of a bar after having a few too many and comes back with their gun in a fit of rage? Also, switching magazines is much easier in a controlled environment compared to an adrenaline-induced situation. Mistakes and missteps are more likely to be made in the latter.
Each time a shooter has to switch magazines, even if it takes just a couple of seconds, it gives people an opportunity to react, whether that is to run, hide, or, as has happened many times, stop the shooter.

In this case the shooter had three guns and the shooting went on for minutes. There was no report of anyone in the church being armed so they could shoot back. That could have saved some victims. Additionally, as I have said before, the violent rhetoric in this country needs to be stopped. Voting for leaders who spout violence or preach hatred makes the voters complicit.

LizaMarie · Thursday at 9:51 AM

This person was full of hate. This person was radicalized online where there are corners of extreme hate, I wish we could ban those corners but- "free speech." He was attracted to these hate corners and we don't know why he was attracted to this. I'm sure mental illness played into this. As far as the military, young people at least for now sign up to serve their country,(a good thing!) to protect and defend their country something that maybe would have been good for this young man and given him direction. My Dad and Grandfather and husband served this country in the military. We don't know what this young man's family life was like, apparently his mother was a devout Catholic we don't know if there was a father in the picture. We have a mental health issue for sure, and I'm not opposed to common sense gun laws. I'm no fan of Trump, and didn't vote for him, but I totally understand why people did. The state I live in has tried to strip Christian school and churches of their first amendment rights, people thing Trump will stop that but Trump is a bandage on a huge problem we have today, and no President or government is going to solve what's going on in our society, yes. we can try to pass laws, hardening schools and churches. What is needed is something no government can provide, religious revival! But God will not override people's free will!

Hentenza · Thursday at 10:18 AM

public hermit said:
I saw your post. The number of guns doesn't matter if our attitude towards guns have changed, and they have.
View attachment 369209

Agreed. So the answer does not rest in guns but with the human variable.

Hentenza · Thursday at 10:32 AM

JosephZ said:
You probably can, but what about the average low-life who wants to shoot up a classroom full of kids or a place of worship? Or someone who gets kicked out of a bar after having a few too many and comes back with their gun in a fit of rage? Also, switching magazines is much easier in a controlled environment compared to an adrenaline-induced situation. Mistakes and missteps are more likely to be made in the latter.

Each time a shooter has to switch magazines, even if it takes just a couple of seconds, it gives people an opportunity to react, whether that is to run, hide, or, as has happened many times, stop the shooter.

"I saw the Waffle House employees scatter. Then I looked back and I saw a person laying on the ground right at the entrance of the door," said Shaw, wearing a brown suit jacket and with his right forearm bandaged.

Shaw said he slid from his table and moved toward the door, which the gunman was trying to enter after apparently firing through the glass.

"I'm pretty sure he grazed my arm," said Shaw, 29.

"I kind of made up my mind, because there's no way to lock that door, that if it was gonna come down to it, he was gonna have to work to kill me."
As the shooter was either reloading, or the weapon jammed, Shaw ran and hit him with the swivel door, leading to a scuffle.

"I managed to get him with one hand on the gun, and then I grabbed it from him and threw it over the countertop," before getting the suspect outside, Shaw said.

Jacob later said he thought the gunfire was fire crackers, but as he processed what was happening, he pushed his girlfriend onto a nearby table before falling to the ground; though he didn’t yet know it, he had been shot in the chest.

Chaos erupted as students fled, trying to escape or hide as the assailant continued to shoot — one 17-year-old was struck and killed.

From the floor, Jacob said later that he saw the assailant point a rifle at the head of a female student. The assailant pulled the trigger, but the gun did not fire.
As the assailant attempted to reload his weapon, Jacob got off the floor and ran 20 feet toward the assailant. He tripped and fell, but immediately returned to his feet and charged the assailant. He took the boy to the floor, causing him to drop the rifle. They struggled on the floor and other students joined in to assist Jacob, including his younger brother.

Several people were injured Saturday night after a driver ran his truck into a crowded Hiram restaurant and opened fire, police said.

Eduardo Morales, 34, was arrested after a group of patrons at the 278 South Bar & Grill detained him while he was trying to reload the gun, the Hiram Police Department said in a statement. A concert was underway at the time, the establishment’s owner told Channel 2 Action News.

“I dove in through the driver’s side window, and when I reached in there, I noticed that he had a pistol and he was reloading and putting another magazine in,” Puerto told Channel 2.” And I grabbed the wrist where he had the pistol. He was putting up a fight and he wouldn’t let it go. I kept elbowing him with my right arm.”

Jared Lee Loughner, the alleged shooter in Tucson, used a 33-round magazine in a murderous rampage. The sheriff says 31 spent rounds were found on the scene.

As we now know, a group of heroic bystanders stopped the shooter by wrestling him to the ground. But they didn't have an opportunity to intervene until he emptied the magazine and paused to reload.

If the shooter didn't have access to the high-capacity magazine that he used, he would have stopped to reload sooner and lives might have been saved.

All of what you posted still does not address the root cause which is the human variable. That means to stop it before it happens. Many of the mass shooters don’t just wake up one day and go shoot up a school. There is usually planning involved and outward signs that people (close to them but sometimes not) choose to ignore. This particular shooter had a manifesto in YouTube. Why didn’t people act on that? In other shootings parents ignore the obvious and even purchase guns for them. Continuing to focus on just guns misses the greater point.

JosephZ · Thursday at 11:00 AM

Valletta said:
In this case the shooter had three guns and the shooting went on for minutes.

All of the shooting took place from outside the church, and the primary weapon used was the rifle, according to witnesses. The shooter had five 45-round magazines, one 30-round magazine, and a 60-round magazine (300+ rounds), hence the shooting going on for minutes. Even at a rate of firing 2 rounds a second, it would take 2 1/2 minutes before the shooter would have run out of ammunition for the rifle. One witness who was inside the church said the shooting lasted around two minutes.

From what I saw in the video the shooter posted, the shotgun used would have held six shells. Some witnesses described an initial loud explosion sound when the shooting started, so he likely used the shotgun to blow out the windows. The shooter had two handguns in the video, one semi-automatic with three 10-round clips and a revolver. The shooter said that the revolver was for him if he needed it and appeared to hold it up to his mouth.

Since three weapons were found and all said to have been used, based on this and the witness accounts, it appears the shotgun was used for blowing out the windows, the rifle for targeting those inside the church, and the handgun, whichever he brought with him, was used to kill himself.

The assault-style rifle with high capacity magazines is what lead to so many casualties. The shooter wouldn't have been able to injure an kill as many people firing through the window of a large church with only a shotgun and a handgun.

Valletta said:
There was no report of anyone in the church being armed so they could shoot back. That could have saved some victims.

The doors were barricaded from the outside, and the shooter was firing into the church from the windows with a semi-automatic rifle at a high rate. It would have been very difficult for someone, even a well-trained individual, inside the church among all of the chaos to stop the shooter with a handgun.

public hermit · Thursday at 11:08 AM

Hentenza said:
Agreed. So the answer does not rest in guns but with the human variable.

It's both. I own guns and have always been around them. I find current attitudes about guns disturbing. It's a tool that can do irreversible damage and should be regulated more than it is. Instead, it has become a kind of fetish for the right. It's like a sacred object that holds the keys to our freedom. But all freedoms flourish within boundaries. And to be honest, I don't find our society to be a responsible one, and certainly not capable of handling such a dangerous tool. If we can't control ourselves and use this tool responsibly, then we need to be restrained.

It's also a human problem. I agree that the issue runs deeper than just the fact that we own guns. As you pointed out, there was a time when we owned plenty of guns and did not have so many mass killings with them. I am not sure how to get to the heart of that change. I reject claims that it's about our turn away from God. When we were supposedly God-fearing-folk, all kinds of inhumane travesties were being tolerated. So it's something else; I don't know what. I do think we need to be more nuanced in our thinking about this. And, we need to face the reality that there is something terribly wrong with our society, accept the fact, and work together to find viable solutions. Okay, sermon over. You may now pass the plate.

JosephZ · Thursday at 11:19 AM

Hentenza said:
All of what you posted still does not address the root cause which is the human variable. That means to stop it before it happens. Many of the mass shooters don’t just wake up one day and go shoot up a school. There is usually planning involved and outward signs that people (close to them but sometimes not) choose to ignore.

People in the US have the same problems as people in other countries, yet they don't have people shooting up schools and places of worship on a regular basis. Too many guns and the ease of acquiring them are certainly strong contributors as to why we have this unique problem. It is also one of the easiest problems to address. It shouldn't be difficult to pass gun laws that make sense, especially when most Americans support them.

Hentenza said:
This particular shooter had a manifesto in YouTube. Why didn’t people act on that?

There was more than one video and the shooter sheduled them to be uploaded at the same time as the shooting. They were only online for a few hours at most. When I downloaded them, they had only been online for two hours.

Hentenza said:
In other shootings parents ignore the obvious and even purchase guns for them. Continuing to focus on just guns misses the greater point.

I agree that there also needs to be a focus on mental health in this country and other measures that can be taken to prevent mass shootings and gun violence in general.

Valletta · Thursday at 11:25 AM

It is commonplace for LGBTQ activists, as well as many in the media, education and government, to complain about the high rates of violence that transgender persons experience. But with the exception of the Catholic League, virtually no one is telling the truth about this condition: the majority of the violence committed against transgender persons is committed by other transgender persons.

THE CRISIS OF TRANSGENDER VIOLENCE - Catholic League

Bill Donohue

www.catholicleague.org

Note the violence of trans upon trans. This is a more violent than average group, and with the step-up in violent rhetoric nation-wide I fear more such crimes will occur.

JosephZ · Thursday at 12:10 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
There are measures that could be taken that would potentially prevent some of the two highlighted categories ...however, I have doubts that people would have the patience to let them actually simmer long enough to let the effects come to fruition before trying to immediately throw additional restriction measures at the problem.

People need to make sure they have their heads wrapped around the reality that the proliferation is already extremely high, and that any measures imposed will be on a "moving forward basis", and likely won't significantly move the needle immediately. (it could be 30 years before any noticeable shift in the stats)

ThatRobGuy said:
As where, I feel like modern activists and advocates seem to have a diminishing patience level for "how soon until things are the way I want them to be?" It took 100 years for the gun affinity/culture to develop to where it's at today, that's not going to be un-done in a decade.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think it would take as long to see positive results. I went to the Everytown Research site and found the article below. Based on past performance and future projections, noticeable reductions in gun deaths would start to be noticed within a few years if tighter gun control was initiated at the federal level and matched the gun laws found in states that currently have the strictest gun policies in the country.

New Data, Same Conclusion: Smart Gun Laws Save Lives

Today, Everytown for Gun Safety Support Fund released its 2024 state Gun Law Rankings, which once again show a clear correlation between states with strong gun laws and lower rates of gun violence. Here are three key takeaways:

Our eight “National Leaders” [California, New York, Illinois, Connecticut, Hawaii, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Maryland] have a rate of gun violence nearly three times lower than the 14 “National Failures.” [Kansas, Missouri, New Hampshire, Kentucky, Alaska, Arizona, Oklahoma, Wyoming, South Dakota, Georgia, Montana, Idaho, Mississippi, and Arkansas]

If every state had the same gun death rate as our National Leaders, we could have saved more than 137,000 lives over the past decade. That’s more people than can fit in the largest football stadium in America.

Looking ahead, if every state in the country had the gun violence rates of our National Leaders, we could save 298,000 lives in the next decade—three giant football stadiums of lives saved.

While the National Leaders weren’t immune to national gun violence trends, the data shows that states that thoughtfully strengthened their laws over the years consistently saw lower death rates, with a 36 percent reduction in gun deaths since 1990.

In 1990, the gun death rate among children and teenagers was nearly the same in both states with strong and weak laws. In the following years, that trajectory took a sharp turn, and the states that implemented the strongest gun laws reduced the rate of gun deaths among children and teenagers by 58 percent. But, following a broad national decline, states with the weakest laws have gone in a different direction, experiencing an 18 percent increase. As a result, children and teenagers are half as likely to die by guns in the states with the strongest laws compared to the states with the weakest ones.

RocksInMyHead · Thursday at 12:33 PM

Hentenza said:
Btw- I can reload an empty magazine in my handgun in less than 3 seconds so if I am a shooter the smaller magazine is not going to hinder me much.

I can think of one style of speed loader that would make this claim plausible, and even then, only under ideal conditions with some things pre-staged. The only person who could go from an empty mag in a gun and a box of ammo in their pocket to a fully loaded mag ready to fire in under 3 seconds is The Flash.

Hentenza · Thursday at 12:36 PM

RocksInMyHead said:
I can think of one style of speed loader that would make this claim plausible, and even then, only under ideal conditions with some things pre-staged. The only person who could go from an empty mag in a gun and a box of ammo in their pocket to a fully loaded mag ready to fire in under 3 seconds is The Flash.

lol talking about changing mags not filling the mag.

7thKeeper · Thursday at 12:44 PM

Valletta said:
It is commonplace for LGBTQ activists, as well as many in the media, education and government, to complain about the high rates of violence that transgender persons experience. But with the exception of the Catholic League, virtually no one is telling the truth about this condition: the majority of the violence committed against transgender persons is committed by other transgender persons.

THE CRISIS OF TRANSGENDER VIOLENCE - Catholic League

Bill Donohue

www.catholicleague.org

Note the violence of trans upon trans. This is a more violent than average group, and with the step-up in violent rhetoric nation-wide I fear more such crimes will occur.

With the exception of... So only a single source is claiming this? Why should they be taken more seriously than multiple other sources that would say something else then?

o_mlly · Thursday at 12:48 PM

Preventative laws that would discriminate between otherwise law-abiding citizens, eg. adult, non-violent, non-felon citizens, from owning a gun would imo be quite difficult short of a proposing a constitutional amendment.

From what we know so far about the shooter at Annunciation, can someone offer an example of such possible legislation that would have prevented him from owning his legal firearms?

caffeinated.hermit · Thursday at 12:51 PM

7thKeeper said:
With the exception of... So only a single source is claiming this? Why should they be taken more seriously than multiple other sources that would say something else then?

The sources cited :

Intimate Partner Violence and Mental Health Among Transgender and Gender Diverse Young Adults - Journal of Family Violence

Purpose Research indicates that multiple forms of intimate partner violence (IPV) may be prevalent among transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people, including general forms of IPV (psychological, physical, sexual), as well as identity-specific forms (transgender-related IPV (T-IPV), identity...

link.springer.com

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2820301

Study Exposes High Injury Rates in Transgender Women

/PRNewswire/ -- A new study found that injury rates among transgender women are significantly higher than injuries among cisgender women, based on radiological...

www.prnewswire.com

Domestic Violence in the Transgender Community

Transgender survivors of intimate partner violence face discrimination, mistreatment from legal system.

www.domesticshelters.org

RocksInMyHead · Thursday at 12:56 PM

Hentenza said:
lol talking about changing mags not filling the mag.

Fair enough. I thought it was a silly claim, but that is what "reloading an empty magazine" connotates.

At any rate having to stop to change magazines still creates a break, even if only for a couple seconds, forces you to drop focus and reacquire your target (unless you are very well-trained), creates more opportunities for a malfunction, requires you to carry and keep track of more items, requires you to purchase more items, etc. If you're limited to, say, 10 rounds instead of the 18-20 that most handguns can hold now (let alone the ludicrousness of some high-capacity rifle mags), that means you're reloading twice as often and having to carry twice as many magazines for the same effect. In a situation where seconds matter, that can make a difference.

Is it going to solve the problem? No. But it will almost certainly save some lives, and no civilian needs a 20 round magazine in their handgun.

JosephZ · Thursday at 1:01 PM

o_mlly said:
From what we know so far about the shooter at Annunciation, can someone offer an example of such possible legislation that would have prevented him from owning his legal firearms?

A ban on assault style weapons, a ban on high capacity magazines, and possibly a waiting period since it has been stated that the guns used had "recently" been purchased. Time will tell on that one.

Larniavc · Thursday at 1:25 PM

Danthemailman said:
Christian men serial killers is an oxymoron according to scripture. (1 John 3:9-10) There are genuine Christians and there are pseudo-Christians and by their fruit you will know them. (Matthew 7:17-20)

No True Scotchman.

RocksInMyHead · Thursday at 1:30 PM

Valletta said:
It is commonplace for LGBTQ activists, as well as many in the media, education and government, to complain about the high rates of violence that transgender persons experience. But with the exception of the Catholic League, virtually no one is telling the truth about this condition: the majority of the violence committed against transgender persons is committed by other transgender persons.

THE CRISIS OF TRANSGENDER VIOLENCE - Catholic League

Bill Donohue

www.catholicleague.org

Note the violence of trans upon trans. This is a more violent than average group, and with the step-up in violent rhetoric nation-wide I fear more such crimes will occur.

That article grossly misrepresents the data that it cites. This becomes clear if you spend even just a few minutes checking the links:

In May 2023, the Journal of Family Violence published an article co-authored by nine researchers, “Intimate Partner Violence and Mental Health Among Transgender and Gender Diverse Young Adults.” They found that the rates of psychological, physical and sexual abuse among transgender persons committed by those just like themselves is startling. They studied young adults in New York City and concluded that those who consider themselves “gender diverse,” meaning they do not consider themselves to be either male or female, experience the highest rates of violence.

The cited article does not state the sexuality or gender identity of the people who are perpetrating the observed abuse in the transgender community, so the statement: "They found that the rates of psychological, physical and sexual abuse among transgender persons committed by those just like themselves is startling." is a blatant misrepresentation of the research (not to mention terrible grammar).

A study of 3,560 transgender and gender diverse California adults was published in June 2024 by the Journal of the American Medical Association. It found that they were “significantly more likely to face physical, sexual, and intimate partner violence in the past year relative to cisgender respondents [those who accept their sexual status].” This was especially true of transgender men, meaning women who falsely identify as male.

Again, the cited article says nothing about the sexuality or gender identities of the perpetrators. It is solely about the rate of violence committed against trans people.

It was reported in July 2024 that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 44 percent of lesbians and 61 percent of bisexual women experienced rape, physical violence, or stalking committed by those in their same community.

Not sure what this has to do with trans people; the fact that it was included represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the subject.

Also in July 2024, The Williams Institute at the UCLA School of Law reported that “between 30% and 50% of transgender people” are victims of violence committed by other transgender persons.

No citation is provided for this, and I cannot find anything to match it. Note, however, the selective quotation. (ETA: found this link - https://www.nomore.org/domestic-violence-transgender-community/; as I suspected, the finding was that 30-50% of transgender individuals are victims of intimate partner violence, not violence committed by other trans people)

In December 2024, the Radiological Society of America published a study of 263 men who consider themselves to be female (transgender women) and compared them to women who accept their nature-given sex. It found that transgender women had eight times as many head injuries, 36 times as many facial injuries and five times as many chest injuries. Forty-two percent of the men who think they are female were violently attacked by other transgender women.

The study found that 42% of the transgender women who experienced injuries were involved in interpersonal violence. Not sure how they get to that meaning "attacked by other transgender women".

In 2025, the Human Rights Campaign, the large LGBTQ organization, updated data from 2017 and found that “More than half, or 54 percent of transgender and non-binary individuals have experienced intimate partner violence (IPV) in their lifetimes.” The American Journal of Public Health also published data showing how violence marks this community.

The author does not appear to understand the fact that the intimate partners of trans people are typically not transgender themselves.

In short, absolutely none of the data cited in this so-called article actually supports the author's argument that transgender people are the primary perpetrators of violence against the transgender community. The author's assumption that the intimate partners of transgender people are themselves exclusively (or at least overwhelmingly) trans appears to be doing all of the heavy lifting here. No data or justification whatsoever is provided to support that assumption.

RocksInMyHead · Thursday at 1:31 PM

caffeinated.hermit said:
The sources cited :

Intimate Partner Violence and Mental Health Among Transgender and Gender Diverse Young Adults - Journal of Family Violence

Purpose Research indicates that multiple forms of intimate partner violence (IPV) may be prevalent among transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people, including general forms of IPV (psychological, physical, sexual), as well as identity-specific forms (transgender-related IPV (T-IPV), identity...

link.springer.com

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2820301

Study Exposes High Injury Rates in Transgender Women

/PRNewswire/ -- A new study found that injury rates among transgender women are significantly higher than injuries among cisgender women, based on radiological...

www.prnewswire.com

Domestic Violence in the Transgender Community

Transgender survivors of intimate partner violence face discrimination, mistreatment from legal system.

www.domesticshelters.org

Yeah, none of those articles provide any support for the claim that the transgender community itself is violent. Did you read them?

Aldebaran · Thursday at 1:45 PM

JosephZ said:
All of the shooting took place from outside the church, and the primary weapon used was the rifle, according to witnesses. The shooter had five 45-round magazines, one 30-round magazine, and a 60-round magazine (300+ rounds), hence the shooting going on for minutes. Even at a rate of firing 2 rounds a second, it would take 2 1/2 minutes before the shooter would have run out of ammunition for the rifle. One witness who was inside the church said the shooting lasted around two minutes.

From what I saw in the video the shooter posted, the shotgun used would have held six shells. Some witnesses described an initial loud explosion sound when the shooting started, so he likely used the shotgun to blow out the windows. The shooter had two handguns in the video, one semi-automatic with three 10-round clips and a revolver. The shooter said that the revolver was for him if he needed it and appeared to hold it up to his mouth.

Since three weapons were found and all said to have been used, based on this and the witness accounts, it appears the shotgun was used for blowing out the windows, the rifle for targeting those inside the church, and the handgun, whichever he brought with him, was used to kill himself.

The assault-style rifle with high capacity magazines is what lead to so many casualties. The shooter wouldn't have been able to injure an kill as many people firing through the window of a large church with only a shotgun and a handgun.

300 rounds of rifle ammo (not counting the shotgun and revolver) resulting in 2 people being killed.
How do you reason that high capacity magazines led to "so many casualties"?

Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

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