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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

zoidar

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How can somebody "dead in trespasses and sins" turn from sin and turn to Christ? That is like suggesting that Lazarus had to come out of his tomb to Jesus in order to be brought back to life.
The comparison with Lazarus is in my opinion a poor one. Because Lazarus was physically dead, but he was already spiritually alive, since he was a believer and a follower of Christ. That analogy would rather fit the day of the final resurrection when Christ returns and raises us from our graves.

Being "Dead in trespasses and sins" means being under judgement leading to eternal death. Compare it with:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
— John 8:24
 
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Brightfame52

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The comparison with Lazarus is in my opinion a poor one. Because Lazarus was physically dead, but he was already spiritually alive, since he was a believer and a follower of Christ. That analogy would rather fit the day of the final resurrection when Christ returns and raises us from our graves.

Being "Dead in trespasses and sins" means being under judgement leading to eternal death. Compare it with:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
— John 8:24
Man by nature is spiritually dead as Lazarus was physically dead, the point is the dead needs resurrection and its out of mans ability. The Illustration showed the Glory of God in giving life to the dead, that's why Jesus waited for him to die in his sickness Jn 11:38-44

39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

It took a miracle for him to be made physically alive, for the Glory of God, and likewise for those who are spiritually dead. Now I say this, as Lazarus was obviously one of Gods elect, so likewise those who are raised from spiritual death.
 
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zoidar

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Repentance is a fruit of the Spirit. Unless you have already been saved and God turns your heart to himself, GRANTING you the gift of the Holy Spirit, then you have no hope of repenting. To do this your way is akin to working for your salvation, making it no longer a free gift but a wage which is owed.
I respectfully disagree! I believe it's the other way around, we repent to receive salvation and the Holy Spirit. In Ezekiel 18:31-32 Israel believed in God, yet they were living in sin. They needed to be convicted of their sins to be able to repent and be saved, receive the new heart and the Holy Spirit. This is why Ezekiel was sent, to bring conviction to the people.

If you are on a sinking ship and someone offers you a seat in the lifeboat, is it any less a free gift since you need to accept it by getting in? How does our acceptence turn the free gift into wage?
 
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zoidar

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Man by nature is spiritually dead as Lazarus was physically dead, the point is the dead needs resurrection and its out of mans ability. The Illustration showed the Glory of God in giving life to the dead, that's why Jesus waited for him to die in his sickness Jn 11:38-44

39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

It took a miracle for him to be made physically alive, for the Glory of God, and likewise for those who are spiritually dead. Now I say this, as Lazarus was obviously one of Gods elect, so likewise those who are raised from spiritual death.
It sounds good and all, but it's really a comparison of apples and pears. Just because the word "dead" is used doesn't mean it has the same meaning. Sure you can use the analogy of Lazarus to describe spriritual death, it's just not coherent with Scripture. You might also compare spiritual death to a car’s dead engine, but that doesn't mean it's a Biblically correct analogy.
 
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Brightfame52

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It sounds good and all, but it's really a comparison of apples and pears. Just because the word "dead" is used doesn't mean it has the same meaning. Sure you can use the analogy of Lazarus to describe spriritual death, it's just not coherent with Scripture. You might also compare spiritual death to a car’s dead engine, but that doesn't mean it's a Biblically correct analogy.
You just cant accept the truth that man is dead to God spiritually, no life.
 
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A New Dawn

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I respectfully disagree! I believe it's the other way around, we repent to receive salvation and the Holy Spirit. In Ezekiel 18:31-32 Israel believed in God, yet they were living in sin. They needed to be convicted of their sins to be able to repent and be saved, receive the new heart and the Holy Spirit. This is why Ezekiel was sent, to bring conviction to the people.

If you are on a sinking ship and someone offers you a seat in the lifeboat, is it any less a free gift since you need to accept it by getting in? How does our acceptence turn the free gift into wage?
So by disagreeing with me and believing it is the other way around you are suggesting that salvation shouldn’t be all of God but by man? They need to work for their salvation is what you are saying. By repenting to make themselves worthy of salvation is a heresy.

Let me just put out there that conviction only works if God has already prepared the way. Meaning that HE has already been working on your heart. In which case repenting is a RESPONSE to the salvation God has already given you and not something you have to do to make yourself worthy of salvation.

When God changes your heart you are already a new person. You don’t have to accept it because it is already who you are. You seem to think you have a say in the matter, but it is just an illusion the devil throws at you. Salvation is God’s domain from start to finish. That is what Jesus meant when He said “It is finished” on the cross. It is what Hebrews 12:2 means.
 
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zoidar

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So by disagreeing with me and believing it is the other way around you are suggesting that salvation shouldn’t be all of God but by man? They need to work for their salvation is what you are saying. By repenting to make themselves worthy of salvation is a heresy.

Let me just put out there that conviction only works if God has already prepared the way. Meaning that HE has already been working on your heart. In which case repenting is a RESPONSE to the salvation God has already given you and not something you have to do to make yourself worthy of salvation.

When God changes your heart you are already a new person. You don’t have to accept it because it is already who you are. You seem to think you have a say in the matter, but it is just an illusion the devil throws at you. Salvation is God’s domain from start to finish. That is what Jesus meant when He said “It is finished” on the cross. It is what Hebrews 12:2 means.
Do you consider Arminianism heresy?
 
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A New Dawn

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Do you consider Arminianism heresy?
Arminianism doesn’t say you have to make yourself worthy to be saved. It suggests you can participate with God in being saved, but they fail to understand that when YOU make something a requirement for salvation YOU are creating a works-based salvation, so Arminianism is considered semi-pelagian in nature. The glory of the gospel is that while you were a sinner and without correct theology, since you had NO theology, Christ saved you, so it doesn’t matter what you believe. God saved you all on His own anyway. HE gets the glory, not you.

I, personally, believe that Arminianism is close to being heretical, but I know that this website doesn’t hold that position, so you are free to have that belief. The reason I hold my belief is from coming from a tradition where salvation required my participation, and the grief I bore when I felt I was not holding up my part of the bargain and the freedom I felt when I finally had the strength to cast aside that false illusion created by the devil to keep us in chains.
 
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zoidar

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Arminianism doesn’t say you have to make yourself worthy to be saved. It suggests you can participate with God in being saved, but they fail to understand that when YOU make something a requirement for salvation YOU are creating a works-based salvation, so Arminianism is considered semi-pelagian in nature. The glory of the gospel is that while you were a sinner and without correct theology, since you had NO theology, Christ saved you, so it doesn’t matter what you believe. God saved you all on His own anyway. HE gets the glory, not you.

I, personally, believe that Arminianism is close to being heretical, but I know that this website doesn’t hold that position, so you are free to have that belief. The reason I hold my belief is from coming from a tradition where salvation required my participation, and the grief I bore when I felt I was not holding up my part of the bargain and the freedom I felt when I finally had the strength to cast aside that false illusion created by the devil to keep us in chains.
I thought what I held was close to Arminianism, maybe provisionism then? Anyhow I in no way believe you have to work for salvation. You say I believe we have to make ourselves worthy to be saved. I believe nothing like that. I believe we need to acknowledge and confess we are totally unworthy of salvation to be saved. God convicts, we confess our unworthiness, our need of His mercy, then God gives us His Spirit, saves us. Isn't that the teaching of classical Arminianism?

Maybe it's true God works in our heart long before we are saved, but we have still not received His Spirit, been born again until we repent, confess being a sinner unworty of salvation.
 
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Brightfame52

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@zoidar

I believe we need to acknowledge and confess we are totally unworthy of salvation to be saved. God convicts, we confess our unworthiness, our need of His mercy, then God gives us His Spirit, saves us. Isn't that the teaching of classical Arminianism?
That works and merit, a good quality God sees in you and not in others. Confessing is a work, an action, then you feel you did enough for God to saved you, right ?
 
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zoidar

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@zoidar


That works and merit, a good quality God sees in you and not in others.
“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
— Matthew 18:23-27


Would you say then the slave who pleaded to the king got his dept forgiven because the king saw a good quality in him?

Confessing is a work, an action, then you feel you did enough for God to saved you, right ?
Not at all! You are thankful having received mercy, which you know you didn't deserve.
 
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Brightfame52

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“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
— Matthew 18:23-27


Would you say then the slave who pleaded to the king got his dept forgiven because the king saw a good quality in him?


Not at all! You are thankful having received mercy, which you know you didn't deserve.
Yes, you may boast of your good humble quality God doesnt see in the proud sinner, who is rebellious, then you boast of your confessing work. Confessing is a christian work 1 JJn 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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zoidar

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Yes, you may boast of your good humble quality God doesnt see in the proud sinner, who is rebellious, then you boast of your confessing work. Confessing is a christian work 1 JJn 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It sounds like you talk from theory, not from experience. After I had prayed to God and He saved me I was not proud at all. I was so thankful God had showed me mercy, something I knew I didn't deserve at all.
 
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Aseyesee

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Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

If and when one comes to believe on Christ willingly, the credit goes to Gods Power !
There is a reason why the fear of the Lord is coined as being the beginning of knowledge ... and is evident with Adam ... but the fact remains if there were no commandment there would have been no sin ... this is not a test of will, it is the revealing of the process found in the soul ... and the process of a seed in the analytical garden ...

God (it appears) chose one over another (as he did with light) of a sacrifice he never asked for, but then asks Cain the question why was his countenance fallen ...
 
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A New Dawn

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I thought what I held was close to Arminianism, maybe provisionism then? Anyhow I in no way believe you have to work for salvation. You say I believe we have to make ourselves worthy to be saved. I believe nothing like that. I believe we need to acknowledge and confess we are totally unworthy of salvation to be saved. God convicts, we confess our unworthiness, our need of His mercy, then God gives us His Spirit, saves us. Isn't that the teaching of classical Arminianism?

Maybe it's true God works in our heart long before we are saved, but we have still not received His Spirit, been born again until we repent, confess being a sinner unworty of salvation.
Those that you listed are fruits of the Spirit. We cannot confess without being born again. Paul is clear in Romans that people who are dead in their sins cannot seek Christ. The Bible is one big picture of God pursuing us. He writes his law on our hearts. He removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 11:19 The heart of stone is not capable of repenting or confessing. Repenting is a response to being given a new heart. Repenting means agreeing with God that we are sinners and turn from our sins.
 
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zoidar

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Those that you listed are fruits of the Spirit. We cannot confess without being born again. Paul is clear in Romans that people who are dead in their sins cannot seek Christ. The Bible is one big picture of God pursuing us. He writes his law on our hearts. He removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 11:19 The heart of stone is not capable of repenting or confessing. Repenting is a response to being given a new heart. Repenting means agreeing with God that we are sinners and turn from our sins.
I basically see repentance as two stages. First initial repentance when we realize we are sinners and we turn to God for forgiveness through Christ and receives the Holy Spirit, forgiveness and salvation. Then it's an ongoing repentance which comes with being a Christian, which means daily turning from sin.
 
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I basically see repentance as two stages. First initial repentance when we realize we are sinners and we turn to God for forgiveness through Christ and receives the Holy Spirit, forgiveness and salvation. Then it's an ongoing repentance which comes with being a Christian, which means daily turning from sin.
What you are expressing is the difference between justification and sanctification. Both of which are components of salvation and require the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to being able to do it.
 
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zoidar

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What you are expressing is the difference between justification and sanctification. Both of which are components of salvation and require the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to being able to do it.
The idea we need the gift of the Holy Spirit first was not known in Church until Augustine, at least as far as I know.
 
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A New Dawn

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The idea we need the gift of the Holy Spirit first was not known in Church until Augustine, at least as far as I know.
Just on a quick google search I was able to find that Augustine believed in total depravity and that man was unable to be saved without Grace being first bestowed by God. That God’s grace is the sole source of salvation. But there is evidence that church fathers all the way back to 100 AD believed in total depravity. They might have called it something different (total inability, etc.), but it is there before Augustine.

Many years back when I first came to CF, there was a poster whose screen name was AugustineWasCalvinist, so I’ve known for quite a while that Augustine held to total depravity. Of course, Augustine wasn’t a Calvinist, but his soteriology was remarkably close to Calvinism.
 
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Brightfame52

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The idea we need the gift of the Holy Spirit first was not known in Church until Augustine, at least as far as I know.
But what does the scripture teach ? Not church history
 
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