This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria

tonychanyt said:

One possibility is that Luke recorded an earlier census, the first Quirinius census, not recorded elsewhere.

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There a several problems with this theory:

1. There are no sources that indicate Quirinius ever governed Syria-Judea earlier, nor conducted a census before 6 AD.

2. If Herod I died in 4 BC, and the province of Judea fell into the reign of Archelaus (4 BC–6 AD), then Quirinius could not have been governor, nor in the position to conduct a census, of the province.

3. Matthew states that Joseph returned from Egypt after Archelaus died. This means that Archelaus was still ethnarch of Judea long after Jesus was born, and Quirinius was not yet in the picture.

4. The census in that time-frame had to have been under Quirinius, because in Acts, it references the rebellion of Judah of Galilee, which is documented outside the Bible as the census in 6 AD.

The historical records state that:

1. Augustus removed Archelaus' position in 6 AD and gave it to Quirinius.

2. Quirinius' annexed the province of Judea to Syria, thus enacting a census for tax purposes.

EDITED: needed to add more.

My apologies, I mistakenly said that Matthew states Archelaus died, I meant after he began to reign. However, the point still stands.

Now, the takeaway is that even though Scripture may have discrepancies or some errors, it doesn't negate it from being God's word.

The following scenario is plausible and supported by several scholarly reconstructions:

Herodian Sub-Census: It is possible that Herod conducted a local census in his kingdom around 8–7 BC, likely as a response to Augustus’s empire-wide decree for taxation and administrative purposes. While Rome did not directly tax client kingdoms, Herod would have needed accurate records to assess tribute and manage local affairs. Herod mirroring the great Augustus could have been political theater aggrandizing Herod as resembling the emperor.

Timing of the Census: The Roman census decree was issued in 8 BC, but because of local resistance and administrative delays, it is suggested that the census in Herod’s territory may have been implemented in 7 or even 6 BC.

Journey to Bethlehem: This local census could have required families to register in their ancestral towns, explaining why Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem around 7–6 BC. The emphasis on ancient pedigree, whilst foreign to Roman citizen censuses, is plausibly consistent with Judean and Middle Eastern emphasis of ancestry.

Jesus’ Birth: This timeline places Jesus’ birth in late 7 or early 6 BC, ie. in December–January of 7–6, or even 6–5 BC, before Herod’s death (traditionally 4 BC).

Arrival of the Magi: If the Magi arrived in mid-5 BC, Jesus would have been between 6 and 18 months old, which aligns with Matthew’s account of Herod targeting boys “two years old and under”.

Summary Table

EventApproximate Date
Census Decree Issued8 BC
Census in Judea7–6 BC
Journey to Bethlehem7–6 BC
Jesus’ BirthDec–Jan 7–6 or 6–5 BC
Magi’s ArrivalMid-5 BC

This reconstruction harmonizes the Gospel accounts with historical and administrative realities, making the scenario historically credible.

Chinese and Korean astrologers observed an unusual stationary "broom star" in Aquila and Capricorn for over 10 weeks in March and April of 5 BC, often interpreted as a supernova. That amount of time would have been almost enough to guide the Magi all the way from Babylon to Bethlehem, arriving there in mid 5 BC.

A supernova appearing in the region of Aquila and Capricorn (Capricornus) could be interpreted with rich biblical symbolism, especially in the context of ancient Judean and early Christian sky lore.

Aquila (The Eagle):

In biblical typology, Aquila represents the eagle, often associated with divinity, heaven, and the Gospel of John.

In ancient star lore, Aquila is depicted as a wounded or falling eagle, pierced by the arrow Sagitta, symbolizing a willing sacrifice. This imagery is often linked to Christ’s sacrificial death, as the eagle descends from heaven and is “pierced” for the sake of others.

Star names in Aquila, such as “The Piercing” and “Wounded in the Heel,” echo Genesis 3:15 and the messianic prophecy of the serpent bruising the heel of the seed of the woman.

Capricorn (Capricornus):

Capricorn is symbolized by a dying goat and a living fish, representing sacrifice and resurrection—the goat (sin offering) dying, and the fish (life) rising, a motif connected to Christ’s death and resurrection.

The constellation’s message is one of atonement and new life, themes central to Christian theology.

Combined Message:

In ancient zodiac interpretations, Aquila and Sagitta are decans (subsidiary constellations) of Capricorn, reinforcing a narrative of a willing, divine sacrifice leading to redemption.

A supernova—a “new star”—in this region could be construed as a dramatic celestial sign marking the arrival or sacrifice of the Messiah, aligning with Genesis 1:14 (“let them be for signs and seasons”) and the Magi’s search for a sign of the King of Israel.

Summary Table

ConstellationBiblical SymbolismChristological Implication
AquilaThe pierced/wounded eagleWilling sacrifice, divinity
CapricornusDying goat, living fishSacrifice, resurrection

In summary:

A supernova in Aquila–Capricorn would have been interpreted by biblical astrologers as a powerful sign of divine sacrifice and redemption, fitting Messianic expectations and the themes of atonement, death, and resurrection central to Christian theology.

(These responses were generated in part by Perplexity)

There is a supernova remnant on the sky in the right place called Kesteven 75. A two thousand year old age is consistent with older estimates but more modern papers say it's only 600-800 years old

There were numerous significant astrological alignments and conjunctions from 7-2 BC which could have kept magi up at night observing and discussing their importance:

## Major Planetary Conjunctions Associated with the Star of Bethlehem

| Date/Year | Celestial Event/Conjunction | Details & Significance |
|------------------|-----------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| 7 BC | Triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn | Three close passes in Pisces (May 27, October 6, December 1); suggested by Kepler as the "star"[5][6][7]. |
| 6 BC | Massing of Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn | All three planets grouped in Pisces (February–March); visible after sunset[6][8]. |
| 6 BC | Double lunar occultation of Jupiter | Jupiter hidden by the Moon on March 20 and April 17 in Aries; April 17 coincided with Jupiter’s heliacal rising[5][6]. |
| 3 BC – 2 BC | Jupiter–Regulus triple conjunction | Jupiter (the "king planet") and Regulus (the "king star") in Leo, with three close approaches starting September 3 BC[2][5]. |
| June 2 BC | Jupiter–Venus conjunction | The two brightest planets merged visually in Leo, appearing as a single brilliant "star"[1][2][5]. |
| December 2 BC | Jupiter’s stationary point in retrograde | Jupiter appeared to "stop" over Bethlehem due to retrograde motion, matching the biblical account[2][5]. |

## Astronomical Context

- **Jupiter and Saturn in Pisces (7 BC):** This rare triple conjunction was highlighted by Kepler and is often cited as an event of astrological significance in the ancient world, particularly as Pisces was associated with the Jewish people[5][6][7][8].
- **Jupiter, Venus, and Regulus (3–2 BC):** The repeated close approaches of Jupiter and Regulus, followed by the spectacular conjunction of Jupiter and Venus in 2 BC, would have created an extremely bright object in the dawn sky, possibly interpreted as a sign of a royal birth[2][5].
- **Lunar Occultation of Jupiter (6 BC):** Michael Molnar proposed that the occultation of Jupiter by the Moon in Aries (the zodiac sign for Judea) on April 17, 6 BC, would have been astrologically significant to Magi using Greek astrology[5][6].
- **Jupiter’s Retrograde "Stopping" (2 BC):** The apparent halting of Jupiter in retrograde motion over Bethlehem on December 25, 2 BC, aligns with the Gospel’s description of the "star" stopping over the place where the child was[2][5].

## Summary

The most widely discussed planetary conjunctions associated with the Star of Bethlehem include:
- The **triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in Pisces (7 BC)**
- The **close grouping of Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn (6 BC)**
- The **Jupiter–Regulus–Venus events in Leo (3–2 BC)**
- The **Jupiter–Venus conjunction (June 2 BC)**
- The **lunar occultations of Jupiter (6 BC)**
- The **stationary point of Jupiter in retrograde (December 2 BC)**

These events were rare, visually striking, and carried significant astrological meaning in the ancient world, making them plausible candidates for the phenomenon described as the Star of Bethlehem[1][2][5][6][7][8].

Citations:
[1] The Star of Bethlehem: Can science explain what it really was? The Star of Bethlehem: Can science explain what it really was?
[2] Conjunctions, the Star of Bethlehem and Astronomy Conjunctions, the Star of Bethlehem and Astronomy
[3] [PDF] Astronomical Conjunctions and The Star of Bethlehem https://astronomy.gatech.edu/Observatory/Star_of_Bethlehem_2020.pdf
[4] What was the Star of Bethlehem? | Space What was the Star of Bethlehem?
[5] Star of Bethlehem - Wikipedia Star of Bethlehem - Wikipedia
[6] [PDF] STAR OF BETHLEHEM https://www.astro.rug.nl/~vdkruit/jea3/homepage/beth.pdf
[7] What was the Christmas Star? | Royal Museums Greenwich What was the Christmas Star?
[8] Star of Bethlehem - Milwaukee Astronomical Society Star of Bethlehem

Erik Nelson said:

The following scenario is plausible and supported by several scholarly reconstructions:

Herodian Sub-Census: It is possible that Herod conducted a local census in his kingdom around 8–7 BC, likely as a response to Augustus’s empire-wide decree for taxation and administrative purposes. While Rome did not directly tax client kingdoms, Herod would have needed accurate records to assess tribute and manage local affairs. Herod mirroring the great Augustus could have been political theater aggrandizing Herod as resembling the emperor.

Timing of the Census: The Roman census decree was issued in 8 BC, but because of local resistance and administrative delays, it is suggested that the census in Herod’s territory may have been implemented in 7 or even 6 BC.

Journey to Bethlehem: This local census could have required families to register in their ancestral towns, explaining why Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem around 7–6 BC. The emphasis on ancient pedigree, whilst foreign to Roman citizen censuses, is plausibly consistent with Judean and Middle Eastern emphasis of ancestry.

Jesus’ Birth: This timeline places Jesus’ birth in late 7 or early 6 BC, ie. in December–January of 7–6, or even 6–5 BC, before Herod’s death (traditionally 4 BC).

Arrival of the Magi: If the Magi arrived in mid-5 BC, Jesus would have been between 6 and 18 months old, which aligns with Matthew’s account of Herod targeting boys “two years old and under”.

Summary Table

EventApproximate Date
Census Decree Issued8 BC
Census in Judea7–6 BC
Journey to Bethlehem7–6 BC
Jesus’ BirthDec–Jan 7–6 or 6–5 BC
Magi’s ArrivalMid-5 BC

This reconstruction harmonizes the Gospel accounts with historical and administrative realities, making the scenario historically credible.

Click to expand...

You're leaving out the fact that Quirinius issued the census (Luke). We have records that he became governor and issued a census for Judea long after Herod was dead, conflicting with Matthew’s account. Herod and Qurinius never had the same jurisdiction over the Judeans at the same time. This is a very clear inconsistency.

Jonaitis said:

You're leaving out the fact that Quirinius issued the census (Luke). We have records that he became governor and issued a census for Judea long after Herod was dead, conflicting with Matthew’s account. Herod and Qurinius never had the same jurisdiction over the Judeans at the same time. This is a very clear inconsistency.

Click to expand...

Well, it's perfectly grammatically possible to interpret Luke to have stated, "the first census before Quirinius". And inferring a local Judean herodian census in 8-7-6 BC much better fits biblical chronology, as well as the non Roman but perfectly Judean middle eastern requirement to register in ancestral homelands. Herod was king of Judea and Jews, no matter where they were, not of random strangers who happened to reside near Jerusalem.

If the Magi arrived in Judea in mid-5 BC, they likely recounted to Herod not just the recent "broom star" (comet) but also the earlier, highly significant planetary conjunctions—especially the triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC and the massing of planets in 6 BC. These events would have been well known to astrologers of the time.

Herod’s infamous order to kill all boys in Bethlehem "two years old and under" (Matthew 2:16) fits this context: if his advisors or the Magi told him that the first of these extraordinary signs appeared up to two years earlier, starting in 7 BC, he would have set the age limit accordingly, to ensure no potential rival born under those omens was missed.

"It is suggested that the Magi spoke with Herod when they arrived in Jerusalem in 5 BC April/June and recounted not only the appearance of the comet about one month previously but also described the significance of the planetary massing in 6 BC and the triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC..."

In summary:
Herod’s two-year window almost certainly reflects the span of powerful celestial signs, beginning with the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions in 7 BC, as reported by the Magi and likely confirmed by his own astrologers. This explains why he targeted all children up to two years old, not just newborns

Josephus documents Herod’s escalating paranoia and brutality in his final years, especially from 7 BC onward, when Herod executed his own sons Alexander and Aristobulus after bitter disputes. This period also saw the executions of other family members, Antipater (another son), and even prominent rabbis and their followers. Herod’s actions were driven by deep suspicion and fear of threats to his throne, a pattern that matches the character and timing of the Massacre of the Innocents described in Matthew 2:16.

While Josephus does not mention the massacre of Bethlehem’s infants specifically, his record of Herod’s willingness to kill even his own children for perceived disloyalty or threat to his rule provides a credible historical backdrop for Matthew’s account. Scholars have noted that Josephus, writing for a Greco-Roman audience less sensitive to the deaths of children, may have chosen not to highlight or even mention such an event, especially if it involved a small number of victims in a minor village.

Some historians suggest Josephus may have offered an oblique nod to the same period of violence by detailing Herod’s domestic purges and the execution of his sons in 7 BC, which aligns with the chronology implied in Matthew’s narrative. The two-year window Herod used for the massacre, as described in Matthew, also matches the period when “powerful heavenly signs” began (notably the triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC), supporting the idea that Herod’s astrologers or the Magi traced the threat to his rule back to that time.

Summary:
Josephus’s account of Herod’s violent actions against his own family and others in 7 BC and afterward fits both the timing and character of the massacre described in Matthew. While not explicitly referencing the Massacre of the Innocents, Josephus’s narrative provides strong circumstantial evidence that such an atrocity was in keeping with Herod’s behavior and may have been subtly alluded to in his histories.

(Credit: Perplexity discussion)

Erik Nelson said:

Well, it's perfectly grammatically possible to interpret Luke to have stated, "the first census before Quirinius". And inferring a local Judean herodian census in 8-7-6 BC much better fits biblical chronology, as well as the non Roman but perfectly Judean middle eastern requirement to register in ancestral homelands. Herod was king of Judea and Jews, no matter where they were, not of random strangers who happened to reside near Jerusalem.

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However, there was no such empire-state census ever issued before Qurinius. So this interpretation is just conjecture with no evidence. The reason Quirinius issued a census was because Judea was annexed to Syria, and taxes had to be issued for this new entity.

I have a thread on this interpretation great detail that shows an inconsistency in the dates.

Erik Nelson said:

. . . Herod would have needed accurate records to assess tribute and manage local affairs.

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Have any of the reputable sources you've read made this specific argument? I myself make that argument in the book I'm writing, and it would be useful if there were others out there with the same perspective that I can cite for credibility of the point of view.

Erik Nelson said:

Well, it's perfectly grammatically possible to interpret Luke to have stated, "the first census before Quirinius".

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No it isn't. In the first place, "first" and "before" are both translations of the same word, so it's a redundancy that doesn't exist in the text to use both. Secondly, "before" is not a valid translation. πρώτη is an adjective, not a preposition. αὕτη ἀπογραφὴ πρώτη is all in matching declension. πρώτη, a superlative adjective, agrees with, and modifies, ἀπογραφὴ. The clause says, "This first-most registration . . ." Following that, ἐγένετο means "came to be," "happened," or similar. And ἡγεμονεύοντος τῆς Συρίας Κυρηνίου is a genitive absolute; "during the governing of Syria of Quirinius."

The passage rightly reads, "This first registration happened during Quirinius' governing of Syria."

The Chinese recorded a supernova-like event appearing in the constellation of Capricorn for 70 days from March - April 5 BC.

Detractors observe there are no supernova remnants in our Milky Way in that direction, and that local supernovae tend to be visible for longer periods of time.

However, galaxy NGC 6822, with its active ionized hydrogen HII region NGC 6818 (= IC 1308), is in the right area on the sky, at a distance of ~1-1.5 million lightyears, far enough away that a supernova there might only have been visible for 70 days at the peak of its brightness curve. (There's also a local Planetary Nebula, the "Little Gem Neubla", 6000 lightyears away in our own galaxy, thought to be around 9000 years old, so it first appeared on our skies 3000 years ago, and possibly flared up 2000 years ago (?).)

AFrazier said:

Have any of the reputable sources you've read made this specific argument? I myself make that argument in the book I'm writing, and it would be useful if there were others out there with the same perspective that I can cite for credibility of the point of view.

Click to expand...

According to Perplexity AI:

Yes, several scholarly sources suggest that Herod may have taken an independent census, parallel to Augustus’s census in 8-7 BC, especially to help assess tribute and manage Judean affairs as Roman influence increased in Herod's final years .

Scholarly Support for a Herodian Census
W. M. Ramsay argued that Augustus’s general census policy was implemented in various territories at different times, and Judah’s census potentially occurred later, possibly around 5 BC, with Herod administering a census as Roman interest in Judean affairs grew near his death .

Sherwin-White and the Handbook of Biblical Chronology also contend it is plausible Augustus requested Herod to enact a census, particularly as Herod lost imperial favor and became more subordinate to Roman authority. This could have included local adaptations for Jewish sensitivities, such as registration by tribal origin, helping Herod both to manage his realm and fulfill imperial demands .

Historical commentaries and researchers highlight that relations between Herod and Augustus became strained in Herod's later years, leading to increasing Roman oversight, and Augustus could have ordered census activities in Judea even while Herod remained king .

The census might have served both local administrative needs and the interests of Rome, by providing data for taxes, tribute, and imperial management .

Census as Political Tool
Herod’s census would have smoothed the way for Rome’s future direct administration and allowed Herod to maintain control over a delicate situation by using local customs, such as tribal registration, to avoid unrest .

Scholarly works note this approach prevented the revolt that followed the strictly Roman census under Quirinius in 6 CE .

Several historians and biblical scholars thus see the possibility of a census under Herod, parallel or preparatory to Augustus’s census policies, especially as Rome’s oversight increased .

If a full Roman style census in 6 AD sparked an uprising, perhaps Herod imposing a somewhat similar census 14 years earlier also sparked similar discontent? That would account for his paranoia and crackdown on opposition, even from his own children.

Also:

Some translations and scholarly sources note that the Greek word “protos” in Luke 2:2, commonly rendered “first,” can also mean “before.” This opens the possibility for the translation, “This census took place before Quirinius was governor of Syria” . The NIV’s footnotes acknowledge this variant possibility, and several commentaries discuss the implications for the historical chronology of Jesus’s birth.

Greek and Historical Considerations
The verse is sometimes argued to indicate a distinction between a “first” and a later, well-documented census under Quirinius, referenced by Gamaliel in Acts 5:37 .

Acts 5:37 references Judas the Galilean’s uprising specifically “in the days of the census,” which scholars directly connect to the Quirinius census of 6 CE . This census led to major unrest and the formation of the Zealot party. The passage helps distinguish between this infamous census and the earlier event mentioned in Luke 2:2, which is described as the “first” registration, suggesting Luke was aware of multiple censuses