Trump to sign executive order directing AG to prosecute flag desecration

ThatRobGuy · Monday at 10:54 AM

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-sign-executive-order-directing-ag-prosecute-flag-desecration-2025-08-25/

The order instructs the attorney general to "vigorously prosecute" people who violate flag desecration laws and pursue litigation to clarify the scope of the First Amendment regarding the issue, the fact sheet said.

As a little backdrop...

There were a few rulings in the late 80s that ruled that federal flag protection laws were no-go. However, the EO "directs the attorney general to refer flag desecration cases to state or local authorities."

Currently, around 40 states still have flag desecration laws on the books (including a mixture of red and blue states).

For the various states that still have laws on their books, some only pertain to the US flag, others extend the protections to the Confederate flag, a few extend protections to their State flag and various "coats of arms" (didn't realize that was still a thing over here on the other side of the Atlantic), and some local ordinances extend protections to the city flag.

I can see this going one of two ways

1) a court battle

2) states and localities take a page out of Newsom's recent playbook, and fight fire with fire. (like what Newsom is doing with the gerrymandering...basically neutering overreach by cancelling it out)

A few blue cities a few years back made the Pride flag their official city flag, thereby adding protections to it, and exempting it from the laws/bans of their red state.

What that would look like in this case, is blue cities and blue states make their official flag something that symbolizes some sort of ideology or advocacy that republicans don't like (something like the pride flag or a planned parenthood logo, a picture Dylan Mulvaney...take your pick), and if a conservative were to deface or vandalize one, they would be prosecuted harshly by Trump's own EO.

BCP1928 · Monday at 10:59 AM

ThatRobGuy said:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-sign-executive-order-directing-ag-prosecute-flag-desecration-2025-08-25/

The order instructs the attorney general to "vigorously prosecute" people who violate flag desecration laws and pursue litigation to clarify the scope of the First Amendment regarding the issue, the fact sheet said.

As a little backdrop...

There were a few rulings in the late 80s that ruled that federal flag protection laws were no-go. However, the EO "directs the attorney general to refer flag desecration cases to state or local authorities."

Currently, around 40 states still have flag desecration laws on the books (including a mixture of red and blue states).

For the various states that still have laws on their books, some only pertain to the US flag, others extend the protections to the Confederate flag, a few extend protections to their State flag and various "coats of arms" (didn't realize that was still a thing over here on the other side of the Atlantic), and some local ordinances extend protections to the city flag.

I can see this going one of two ways

1) a court battle

2) states and localities take a page out of Newsom's recent playbook, and fight fire with fire. (like what Newsom is doing with the gerrymandering...basically neutering overreach by cancelling it out)

A few blue cities a few years back made the Pride flag their official city flag, thereby adding protections to it, and exempting it from the laws/bans of their red state.

What that would look like in this case, is blue cities and blue states make their official flag something that symbolizes some sort of ideology or advocacy that republicans don't like (something like the pride flag or a planned parenthood logo, a picture Dylan Mulvaney...take your pick), and if a conservative were to deface or vandalize one, they would be prosecuted harshly by Trump's own EO.

"No flag law is any good that doesn't also prohibition poiticians from wrapping themselves in it." --Garrison Keillor

Oompa Loompa · Monday at 11:00 AM

ThatRobGuy said:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-sign-executive-order-directing-ag-prosecute-flag-desecration-2025-08-25/

The order instructs the attorney general to "vigorously prosecute" people who violate flag desecration laws and pursue litigation to clarify the scope of the First Amendment regarding the issue, the fact sheet said.

As a little backdrop...

There were a few rulings in the late 80s that ruled that federal flag protection laws were no-go. However, the EO "directs the attorney general to refer flag desecration cases to state or local authorities."

Currently, around 40 states still have flag desecration laws on the books (including a mixture of red and blue states).

For the various states that still have laws on their books, some only pertain to the US flag, others extend the protections to the Confederate flag, a few extend protections to their State flag and various "coats of arms" (didn't realize that was still a thing over here on the other side of the Atlantic), and some local ordinances extend protections to the city flag.

I can see this going one of two ways

1) a court battle

2) states and localities take a page out of Newsom's recent playbook, and fight fire with fire. (like what Newsom is doing with the gerrymandering...basically neutering overreach by cancelling it out)

A few blue cities a few years back made the Pride flag their official city flag, thereby adding protections to it, and exempting it from the laws/bans of their red state.

What that would look like in this case, is blue cities and blue states make their official flag something that symbolizes some sort of ideology or advocacy that republicans don't like (something like the pride flag or a planned parenthood logo, a picture Dylan Mulvaney...take your pick), and if a conservative were to deface or vandalize one, they would be prosecuted harshly by Trump's own EO.

I will have to say that, although I despise it, burning the American flag should be protected as a freedom of speech. However, the pride flag has become a secular religious symbol. That is why the left are fine with passing laws to call burning a pride flag a "hate crime" equivalent to burning a cross.

Oompa Loompa · Monday at 11:06 AM

BCP1928 said:
"No flag law is any good that doesn't also prohibition poiticians from wrapping themselves in it." --Garrison Keillor

Who cares about what Garrison Keillor thinks? Unless you are also implying that wearing the pride flag during a gay parade should be outlawed too?

ThatRobGuy · Monday at 11:14 AM

Oompa Loompa said:
I will have to say that, although I despise it, burning the American flag should be protected as a freedom of speech. However, so should bring the pride flag which has become a secular religious symbol. That is why the left are fine with passing laws to call it a "hate crime" to burn it.

I'm not a fan of seeing people burn it either, but like you, I don't want to see that particular form of expression being banned.

But there's a couple different ways the blue states could play this.

They could use the approach I mentioned above...

Or, they could start enforcing the flag code to it's most rigid extremes and add criminal penalties for violations...
(Meaning, they could start arresting conservatives who show up to protests wearing an American flag T-shirt, or using it to penalize conservative-owned business for using it for advertising)

In doing a little more research on the topic, I was actually surprised to see how many developed nations still enforce these kinds of laws.

Evidently us (at least for right now), Canada, and Australia are kind of outliers in that regard. Others are still hitting people with hefty fines and potential jail time for it.

And Denmark has a rather "wonky" legal framework around it. You're allowed to burn your own nation's flag, but not the flags of the EU, UN, or another country.

So, if I went to Denmark and attended a protest next to a Danish person, and we both held up desecrated versions of our own countries' flags, no issues, the moment we handed our desecrated flags to each other, we're both going to get hit with heavy fines.

RDKirk · Monday at 11:24 AM

ThatRobGuy said:
Or, they could start enforcing the flag code to it's most rigid extremes and add criminal penalties for violations...
(Meaning, they could start arresting conservatives who show up to protests wearing an American flag T-shirt, or using it to penalize conservative-owned business for using it for advertising)

The Flag Code applies to actual flags, i.e. cloths produced and intended to be used as the United States flag. Wrapping yourself in a literal flag as clothing would be a textbook violation. A shirt with a flag design is not a violation of the code.

RocksInMyHead · Monday at 11:27 AM

Oompa Loompa said:
However, the pride flag has become a secular religious symbol. That is why the left are fine with passing laws to call burning a pride flag a "hate crime" equivalent to burning a cross.

First of all, hate crimes are not restricted to actions that target religion, so the logic of "if they consider destroying it to be a hate crime, it must be a religious symbol" makes no sense. And second, cross-burnings are more closely associated with racial hate crimes rather than religious ones.

RDKirk · Monday at 11:41 AM

Oompa Loompa said:
I will have to say that, although I despise it, burning the American flag should be protected as a freedom of speech. However, the pride flag has become a secular religious symbol. That is why the left are fine with passing laws to call burning a pride flag a "hate crime" equivalent to burning a cross.

Burning a cross is not, in itself, prosecutable as a "hate crime." For instance, a man can burn a cross on his own private property...the Supreme Court has already ruled that to be free speech. If you burn the cross in someone else's front yard without their permission and against their objection, though, it's already a crime, even if the guy is white.

The federal hate crime statute and state hate crime laws allow enhanced penalties if a crime is motivated by bias against race, religion, ethnicity, et cetera. Enhanced penalties. So if cross burning is used to threaten, harass, or intimidate someone because of their race or religion, it can be charged as a hate crime because threatening, harassing, and intimidating people are already crimes.

A hate crime enhancement only applies when the underlying act is already a crime.

If you lawfully buy a Pride flag, then burn it in your own yard, you haven’t committed arson (because it’s your property). You haven’t trespassed. You haven’t threatened or directly targeted a protected group.

So there’s no “base crime” for a hate crime enhancement to attach to.

Also, in the U.S., there is no legal category called “hate speech.”

Oompa Loompa · Monday at 12:06 PM

RDKirk said:
Burning a cross is not, in itself, prosecutable as a "hate crime."

Perhaps I used a poor example. Because this country tolerates attacks on the Christian faith. Perhaps I should have used the example of burning a picture of Muhammad. The existence in itself being forbidden, and the burning thereof just adding to the insult. Christians have been arrested for much less.

RocksInMyHead · Monday at 12:13 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
Perhaps I used a poor example. Because this country tolerates attacks on the Christian faith.

This country tolerates a lot of things. Hooray for the first amendment!

Oompa Loompa said:
Perhaps I should have used the example of burning a picture of Muhammad. The existence in itself being forbidden, and the burning thereof just adding to the insult.

Still not a crime anywhere in the US, at least not in and of itself.

Oompa Loompa said:
Christians have been arrested for much less.

Color me skeptical.

durangodawood · Monday at 12:37 PM

Flag burning needs to be outlawed on environmental protection grounds. Like people throwing plastic into their "burn barrels" Its a vile offense against other peoples air.

RDKirk · Monday at 12:42 PM

Oompa Loompa said:
Perhaps I used a poor example. Because this country tolerates attacks on the Christian faith. Perhaps I should have used the example of burning a picture of Muhammad. The existence in itself being forbidden, and the burning thereof just adding to the insult.

Not a crime in the US.

Oompa Loompa said:
Christians have been arrested for much less.

Citations of arrests and prosecutions in the US?

RDKirk · Monday at 12:44 PM

durangodawood said:
Flag burning needs to be outlawed on environmental protection grounds. Like people throwing plastic into their "burn barrels" Its a vile offense against other peoples air.

By US code, US flags are supposed to be burned for disposal.

US Marines, always doing more than necessary, go to the extent of "disassembling" a flag--cutting apart the stripes and union--before burning the pieces.

durangodawood · Monday at 12:51 PM

RDKirk said:
By US code, US flags are supposed to be burned for disposal.

US Marines, always doing more than necessary, go to the extent of "disassembling" a flag--cutting apart the stripes and union--before burning the pieces.

That guideline was probably created when flags were canvas or something, prior to the glossy polywhatever fabric of today.

Oompa Loompa · Monday at 12:53 PM

@RDKirk

Street preacher arrested for reading Bible verses at LGBT pride event

A Pennsylvania man was arrested after he began preaching from the Bible on public property during a protest against a nearby pride event

www.christianpost.com

Just one example of hundreds if you take a moment to look. In this example, note how the Christian wasn't even burning flags. He was just preaching the gospel on public grounds.

RDKirk · Monday at 1:09 PM

durangodawood said:
That guideline was probably created when flags were canvas or something, prior to the glossy polywhatever fabric of today.

Hasn't changed, though. They're still supposed to be burned.

If you're uncomfortable burning it yourself, you can turn it over to the nearest Boy Scout, Veterans of Foreign Wars, or American Legion unit...they'll do it.

ozso · Monday at 1:27 PM

Technically setting something on fire can already be a crime. Like dropping a blanket on a public sidewalk and setting it on fire is probably illegal in most jurisdictions.

durangodawood · Monday at 1:28 PM

RDKirk said:
Hasn't changed, though. They're still supposed to be burned.

If you're uncomfortable burning it yourself, you can turn it over to the nearest Boy Scout, Veterans of Foreign Wars, or American Legion unit...they'll do it.

I was a Boy Scout. I would never encourage a Boy Scout expose himself to that toxic mess. The fact that we used to make fun drippy plastic blobs at our campfires notwithstanding. Do as I say, not as I did.

Seriously tho, I dont ever want to be party to burning plastic.

RDKirk · Monday at 2:09 PM

durangodawood said:
I was a Boy Scout. I would never encourage a Boy Scout expose himself to that toxic mess. The fact that we used to make fun drippy plastic blobs at our campfires notwithstanding. Do as I say, not as I did.

Seriously tho, I dont ever want to be party to burning plastic.

Man, all the millions of feet of film from SR-71 and U-2 missions that I burned in my younger days.

We took it out to the end of the flightline and burned it in barrels.
Had to shovel it around while it burned to make sure it was completely consumed.

durangodawood · Monday at 2:13 PM

RDKirk said:
Man, all the millions of feet of film from SR-71 and U-2 missions that I burned in my younger days.

We took it out to the end of the flightline and burned it in barrels.
Had to shovel it around while it burned to make sure it was completely consumed.

I know I know. We used to put lead in gasoline too.

Trump to sign executive order directing AG to prosecute flag desecration

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