Jesus & Social Justice

Clare73 · Sunday at 10:22 AM

Ophiolite said:
Did she agree willingly, or because she was compelled by cicrcumstance and a company which took advantage of that circumstance? Are fair agreements possible between parties whose power is unequal?

"Compelled" is in the eye of the beholder, what compels one does not compel another.
"Compelled" or not, she was free to reject it.
If I need more than a McDonald's salary to support my four children, I work somewhere else, I don't expect McDonald's to raise the pay to accommodate my needs.
Her circumstances are her own responsibility, not that of the employer, whose responsibility is staying in business for the sake of his own family.
The free market will determine if the McDonalds owner is offering equivalent value for what he charges his customers, which is based on his expenses, including employee salaries.

Akita Suggagaki · Sunday at 11:09 AM

Clare73 said:
If I need more than a McDonald's salary to support my four children, I work somewhere else, I don't expect McDonald's to raise the pay to accommodate my needs.

What if there is no where else offering more pay? Work somewhere else in addition to McDonalds?

Clare73 · Sunday at 11:40 AM

joechristianwarrior said:
I know many Christians are hesitant to connect "following Jesus" with what's often called "social justice". But I believe there's compelling biblical support - even in passages like Micah 6:8 - that following Jesus compels us to pursue justice, including in societal forms.
What do you think - does Scripture call us to systemic justice, or is the focus primarily on individual devotion?
I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially after watching this video:

One is personally obligated to practice justice at all times and in all places.
Our free republic will not stand apart from its practice of justice; i.e., giving everyone what he has earned--what he is, therefore, due.
In addition, our Constitution grants certain rights to individuals.
Anymore than this can be exercised personally, as charity.

Clare73 · Sunday at 12:15 PM

public hermit said:
Justice is achieved when life flourishes.

Justice is achieved when everyone is given what he has earned, what he is due.

public hermit said:
The divine intention is for life to flourish (ultimately for created life to abide in eternal life).

It is not the divine intention that all abide in eternal life.

public hermit said:
Justice just is flourishing life. So something is just if it works toward the divine intention for life and unjust if it works against the divine intention for life.

Nowhere is justice defined as "flourishing life."

public hermit said:
I think Christians should use whatever means they have to promote the divine intention for flourishing life for all life, individually and corporately, and do so in ways that honor the dignity and agency of intelligent creatures. Social justice is not an ideology for Christians but simply the result of obeying God's intention.

What God intends is what happens.
If it's not happening, God didn't "intend" it to happen.

public hermit said:
For Christians in a functioning democracy/republic, the means are available to work toward justice, i.e., flourishing life.

Justice is not "flourishing life," it is giving everyone what he has earned, what he is due.

That's why Jesus had to die on the cross, to satisfy the justice of God which is due to those who are in Christ.

public hermit · Sunday at 12:52 PM

Clare73 said:
Justice is achieved when everyone is given what he has earned, what he is due.

It is not the divine intention that all abide in eternal life.

Nowhere is justice defined as "flourishing life."

What God intends is what happens.
If it's not happening, God didn't "intend" it to happen.

Justice is not "flourishing life," it is giving everyone what he has earned, what he is due.

That's why Jesus had to die on the cross, to satisfy the justice of God which is due to those who are in Christ.

Justice is to do God's will, and God's will is that life should flourish. Our scriptures are framed by two clear images of flourishing life- the garden and the city of God. Hence, when God gave the law, the Hebrews were told, do this because this means life to you. Jesus rejected your definition of justice when he said, "You have heard it said and eye for an eye, but I say to you, turn the other cheek. Jesus said he came so that we might have life and have it abundantly. Justice is whatever works toward that goal, and injustice is whatever works against that goal. Jesus died and rose again so that we would have life, which is the divine intention. Forgiveness was not the goal but a means to that goal. And yes, it is the divine intention that all abide in eternal life for God wishes that none should perish but all should repent.

Nithavela · Sunday at 1:01 PM

Akita Suggagaki said:
What if there is no where else offering more pay? Work somewhere else in addition to McDonalds?

You can always sell the children for scientific experimentation when the local mill closes.

Clare73 · Sunday at 4:40 PM

public hermit said:
Justice is to do God's will,

Which is to give every one his due.

public hermit said:
and God's will is that life should flourish. Our scriptures are framed by two clear images of flourishing life- the garden and the city of God. Hence, when God gave the law, the Hebrews were told, do this because this means life to you. Jesus rejected your definition of justice

Jesus did not reject the definition of justice, he required more than simply justice, he required love and mercy.
And the abundant life he brought is not physical, it is eternal spiritual life in relationship with him.
Some of the poorest in the land share in this abundant life which Jesus brought.

public hermit said:
when he said, "You have heard it said and eye for an eye, but I say to you, turn the other cheek. Jesus said he came so that we might have life and have it abundantly. Justice is whatever works toward that goal, and injustice is whatever works against that goal. Jesus died and rose again so that we would have life, which is the divine intention. Forgiveness was not the goal but a means to that goal. And yes, it is the divine intention that all abide in eternal life for God wishes that none should perish but all should repent.

. . .abiding in eternal life has nothing to do with the justice toward which we work. Jesus did not come that everyone may have a comfortable life.
. . .repent in accordance with his law, which all do not do, and which has nothing to do with the definition of justice.

MehGuy · Sunday at 6:59 PM

I think Christianity and social justice strongly go together. Jesus teachings heavily involve around being empathetic, especially towards those are overlooked like the downtrodden and those in society people find uncomfortable like prostitutes and tax collectors.

Perhaps legalistically it has its limits. Emotionally... it's understandable that some Christians have the urge for social justice even when the pursuit for social justice might contradict the scripture they reportedly believe.

Aaron112 · Monday at 2:09 AM

Niels said:
God's idea of justice isn't from a worldly perspective. We live in a fallen world where it rains on the just and the unjust. A world in which people often suffer.

Remember rain is a blessing that makes or allows the crops to grow as the Creator has provided.
HE SENDS the rain and the sunshine, provides these blessings each, on the just and on the unjust, without respect of one over another.

Aaron112 · Monday at 2:13 AM

Akita Suggagaki said:
Some cannot earn. Even the ability to earn is a gift.

Remember of course the poorest of the poor, the widow , whom Jesus said to the disciples - she has put in all her life savings, 2 pennies, and that is more than the others who are wealthy have contributed, even if they put in five or ten thousand dollars. !!!
The widow showed that her trust is in Yahweh, not in herself, not in the priests, not in men.
Faith in Jesus is what matters more than anything else today.

Aaron112 · Monday at 2:18 AM

stevevw said:
the word itself 'social justice comes with so much baggage that its a dangerous philosophy to stand on. It invites ideological culture wars. Its playing the same game as secular politics. It makes Christians and the church one more division among many who are fighting for what is right and how society should be ordered.

This is more about social constructionism than the gospel. It cultivates the idea that we can build within society a social justice utopia that everyone is fighting for. Rather than Gods Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

The best ways of society, of the world, are still pernicious ! Death dealing. As written in Galatians et al.

stevevw said:
So buying into the culture wars is a trap if you are not strong in the faith.

Also if someone is supposedly strong in the faith ! To believe culture is somehow okay, or good, or right with a good motive is deception for all.

stevevw said:
People can be fooled by lookalike ideas that sound good but are designed to undermine Gods way and Christs truth in the gospel.

Amen. The whole world is fooled. Deceived. Noted by almost all the forum posts too !

stevevw said:
Thats why I think the church community should be seperate from how mainstream society sees the social justice issue.

"Come out of her" is required for Jesus' followers! To follow Jesus is to have a single eye towards Him, to serve only Jesus and no one else.

stevevw said:
The church has always been there in the background mopping up the mess society creates. The Good Samaritans who get involved regardless of the politics.

No. The disciples of Jesus did not clean up after the religious leaders, nor the political leaders , nor today after the financial and medical officials all of which are deceptive towards utter destruction.
The disciples of Jesus who are faithful follow Jesus no matter what, wherever He goes, and are likewise perscecuted as He was, not congratulated nor 'blessed' by the evils of mankind/society.

Serve God , and Him Only.

fhansen · Monday at 2:25 AM

joechristianwarrior said:
I know many Christians are hesitant to connect "following Jesus" with what's often called "social justice". But I believe there's compelling biblical support - even in passages like Micah 6:8 - that following Jesus compels us to pursue justice, including in societal forms.

What do you think - does Scripture call us to systemic justice, or is the focus primarily on individual devotion?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially after watching this video:

Of course social justice is a priority for the church. Individual devotion to God without care and action for the poor or rejected, victimized, exploited, for the “least of these”, etc should be a contradiction in terms.

Larniavc · Monday at 3:12 AM

joechristianwarrior said:
I know many Christians are hesitant to connect "following Jesus" with what's often called "social justice". But I believe there's compelling biblical support - even in passages like Micah 6:8 - that following Jesus compels us to pursue justice, including in societal forms.

What do you think - does Scripture call us to systemic justice, or is the focus primarily on individual devotion?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially after watching this video:

Some scripture certainly does but other scripture certainly does not. For me as someone who used to be young it’s the inconsistency of the message that detracts from the overall legitimacy.

Larniavc · Monday at 3:14 AM

Clare73 said:
There is no "social" justice. . .there is only justice; i.e., giving everyone what he has earned; i.e., what he is due.

Yeah but that clearly does not happen.

Niels · Monday at 4:10 AM

Aaron112 said:
Remember rain is a blessing that makes or allows the crops to grow as the Creator has provided.
HE SENDS the rain and the sunshine, provides these blessings each, on the just and on the unjust, without respect of one over another.

Right. The idea that those who receive the rains, the earthly blessings, are more deserving than those who don't is flawed. That's why social justice is important.

Aaron112 · Monday at 4:27 AM

God has nothing to do with social justice. That is a fleshly carnal thought/process/ not in Christ Jesus.

God is Totally Perfect in All His Ways , and Gives Eternal Perfect Instructions to His children , in fact He is Delighted to Reveal the Truth to little children (who trust Him).

stevevw · Monday at 4:28 AM

Aaron112 said:
The best ways of society, of the world, are still pernicious ! Death dealing. As written in Galatians et al.

Thats a good way to put it. There is actually studies that show in reality modern life makes people physically, psychologically and spiritually unwell.

Aaron112 said:
Also if someone is supposedly strong in the faith ! To believe culture is somehow okay, or good, or right with a good motive is deception for all.

I mean strong enough if they choose to enter into that domain and wrestling with proclaiming the gospel and truth and being prepared and able enough to handle this without falling prey. Not that you go looking for this but it will come especially nowadays.

Aaron112 said:
Amen. The whole world is fooled. Deceived. Noted by almost all the forum posts too !

"Come out of her" is required for Jesus' followers! To follow Jesus is to have a single eye towards Him, to serve only Jesus and no one else.

Yes eminate out of her. Thats a good way to put it. It naturally flows from the church Christs example. Just like His followers went about in the background spreading the gospel and helping the needy. Without any program or social justice banner or under any banner. Just being Christlike.

Aaron112 said:
No. The disciples of Jesus did not clean up after the religious leaders, nor the political leaders , nor today after the financial and medical officials all of which are deceptive towards utter destruction.
The disciples of Jesus who are faithful follow Jesus no matter what, wherever He goes, and are likewise perscecuted as He was, not congratulated nor 'blessed' by the evils of mankind/society.

Serve God , and Him Only.

Yes in the sense of standing on the gospel no matter what even if you are hated for it. Not compromising this when it comes time that you may be in a situation where you arerequired to defend the gospel.

Rather I was meaning that Christs example is also seen in the Christians who have been for all history quietly working in the background and not in the limelight helping the poor and needy.

Larniavc · Monday at 5:11 AM

Aaron112 said:
Gives Eternal Perfect Instructions to His children

Then how come Christians argue with each other all the time?

Aaron112 · Monday at 7:19 AM

Larniavc said:
Then how come Christians argue with each other all the time?

If it walks like a duck, but doesn't quack like a duck, and doesn't look like a duck, it's probably not a duck ?

My biggest 'argument', if I argue , is with so-called (in name) Christians. If they do not agree with the thoughts of Jesus yet, then they will later, God Willing, if they are true, and they won't if they are not.

o_mlly · Monday at 7:44 AM

joechristianwarrior said:
I know many Christians are hesitant to connect "following Jesus" with what's often called "social justice".

If "social justice" means a social order in which political and economic equality exists then I do not see the gospels offering much as instructive to achieve those ends.

Justice is a human virtue, that is discernible through reason rather than requiring revelation. Aristotle (a pagan) understood justice in that manner and offered the rational insight that if all humanity were friends then there would be no need for justice.

Based on the Old Testament (Gen 1:26-29), teaching on the universal destination of all worldly goods, we can reason that justice demands that those who a have surplus of goods, ie., have more than is compatible with everyone having enough, are obligated to give from their surplus to those who have less than enough.

Jesus & Social Justice

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