"Capitalism is killing the small church"

Smeadly said:

I do not adhere to the authority of "church fathers" unless their teachings align with Scripture. My covenant is with the God of the Bible, and I believe solely in what Scripture states. If the teachings of church fathers contradict Scripture, such as the qualifications for bishops or the Pauline view on paid ministry, I hold firm in Scripture's teachings. Spiritual truth should not yield to earthly interpretations—it remains steadfast.

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I wish I could like this many times over. Well said.

~bella

stevevw said:

Though I don't advocate becoming Amish I think theres some benefits in opting out or trying to bypass the economic system through co-ops and working together as a seperate church community.

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I’m uncertain if your comment concerning poverty pertains to the Amish and others like themselves. But I can assure you they aren’t impoverished and have more resources than most expect as do Mennonites. Their way of life contradicts the modern church on many levels and I don’t foresee the two ever being identical. They give to other causes as well but their primary focus is caring for their flock and they’re committed to it.

stevevw said:

Those with more give to others with less. Don't spend more than you have to and give the rest to others. I think some churchs hav a lot of money in assets and members are doing pretty good.

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I don’t believe that’s going to happen but we can discuss it elsewhere if you’d like.

~bella

bèlla said:

I’m uncertain if your comment concerning poverty pertains to the Amish and others like themselves. But I can assure you they aren’t impoverished and have more resources than most expect as do Mennonites. Their way of life contradicts the modern church on many levels and I don’t foresee the two ever being identical. They give to other causes as well but their primary focus is caring for their flock and they’re committed to it.

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I agree and I wasn't advocating on being like the Amish. Rather the idea of a church being within society but seperate from society and the world as far as buying into the ideology of secular society which includes capitalism and materialism.

Jesus said give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars. But thats about it. We have to pay taxes though the church is tax exempt. We have to pay for shelter and food to live and whatever other expenses that are essential like health. Though the system is becoming a commodity.

But apart from these things I don't think a Christian or church should be buying into the system. Making lots of money and being capitalists or trying to build some empire on earth.

If we take the Good Samaritan seriously then we should be giving the shirt off our backs to the poor. Doing for them what we would want done for us in the same situation. Which would mean Christians and the church are relatively poor. But rich in Christ. This is what will turn people to God.

But I think this starts with your own backyard. The church needs to look after its own as well and if not as a priority as a broken church cannot help anyome and it would be hypocritical to not first help your family and congregation who are struggling.

I think this was how the early church lived. They were a seperate community within the wider society and kept to their own. Looked after their own. I remember reading how the early church was sending support to other churches. They setup support for widows and their children within the church as many lost their older husbands.

bèlla said:

I don’t believe that’s going to happen but we can discuss it elsewhere if you’d like.

~bella

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Do you think it needs to happen. I think there are some churches who do this and especially in poorer nations and Indigenous peoples. They don't place a lot of value on material goods. But as a family and community they help each other out with what they can afford. But they are also not living within a capitalist and consumer culture.

The west use to live this way before the industrial revolution. People were fairly poor anyway so they had little choice. But they would still help their neighbour out even sharing what little they had.

stevevw said:

I agree and I wasn't advocating on being like the Amish. Rather the idea of a church being within society but seperate from society and the world as far as buying into the ideology of secular society which includes capitalism and materialism.

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There are a lot of things I appreciate about the Amish which attracted me in my early twenties. Community was a large part and I spent some time exploring their culture through the library. While I’ve never acknowledged it aloud my involvement with the slow food movement and related ideals like homesteading and slow living were probably influenced by them. I found my way to other Anabaptist groups down the road. Perhaps it was meant.

stevevw said:

But apart from these things I don't think a Christian or church should be buying into the system. Making lots of money and being capitalists or trying to build some empire on earth.

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We were instructed to use our gifts and talents to the fullest. Mine happen to fall within areas greatly rewarded in our culture. Whether it was medicine, finance or entrepreneurship. I was always going to prosper somehow because of my makeup and personal interests. I was just like other kids of course but I spent more time at the library than the playground and had a hunger for knowledge that was never sated. And I loved being on stage. Whether I was speaking or performing I always enjoyed it.

I think God places people in certain areas and periods of time for a reason. The things I value differ greatly from my loved ones and aren’t a reflection of their influence. It’s things He laid on my heart or instilled as a passion within me. He would not have opened the doors He has if He needed me to live as you suggest. Everything He’s given me can be turned into revenue. That isn’t its starting point of course but an outgrowth of ideas and creativity. That’s how I think. I see products and businesses in my thoughts and interests. It has a purpose beyond plenty.

stevevw said:

If we take the Good Samaritan seriously then we should be giving the shirt off our backs to the poor. Doing for them what we would want done for us in the same situation. Which would mean Christians and the church are relatively poor. But rich in Christ. This is what will turn people to God.

Click to expand...

If I did as you recommend I could not afford the land that would enable me to share my overflow with widows and the needy. I could not afford my education out of pocket that will prepare me for the work that funds my philanthropic pursuits. The foundation and charitable giving would not occur. If I did as you suggest I would be laden with debt to build that entity and the property mentioned. I couldn’t fund it myself and owe no man as instructed. It would be disingenuous to squander my talents to mirror another’s actions when He’s given me the ability to do otherwise.

The greatest problem of our modern age is man’s inability to see beyond the norm he knows. There’s no scope in his vision or horizon he glimpses within sight. And he places the people around him in that narrow perspective and wrongly assumes they see what he does. There‘s no room for diversity anymore. We want everyone to think and live as we do and that isn’t normal. Whether it’s the church or not. Difference is a fact of life and we’re afraid of it.

stevevw said:

But I think this starts with your own backyard. The church needs to look after its own as well and if not as a priority as a broken church cannot help anyome and it would be hypocritical to not first help your family and congregation who are struggling.

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This is where a greater understanding of the body is required and why the symbolism exists. Each part has its purpose and you can’t make blanket statements for that reason. All are not eyes or feet nor is everyone called to teach or preach. If we’re wholly invested in our mission and using the things God placed within us we won’t have time for scrutinize one another. We have to stop focusing on other people and get our house in order first and move within the parameters He instructs.

What’s the use of having the Holy Spirit if everyone has the answers? The Lord lays different things on our heart and we have to respect that if we want to work together. You can’t keep telling people what they should be doing because you feel it’s important. They may have a different assignment and that has to be respected. We have to get into the practice of asking before we respond. Allow them to tell us where the Lord is leading them and what He’s laid on their heart. Then we can provide a suggestion for service or recommendations for groups seeking others like them. You don’t stick people here and there haphazardly.

stevevw said:

I think this was how the early church lived. They were a seperate community within the wider society and kept to their own. Looked after their own. I remember reading how the early church was sending support to other churches. They setup support for widows and their children within the church as many lost their older husbands.

Click to expand...

We need to move beyond our fascination with nostalgia. We’re always looking back to former times trying to recapture what has passed. If the Lord wanted us in that period we would have been born in that time. We will never be the early church because we’re needed in the here and now. The example wasn’t provided for us to romanticize. It’s a guideline we can use to do comparable things in our era but it won’t be exact.

If Paul had the technology we have today he would have built his ministry on the internet because of its reach. That wasn’t possible then so he used the tools available and we must follow suit. We have safeguards that didn’t exist in that time. Like social security, pensions and welfare. Our cost of living is greater because we have more convenience and automation. We can finish tasks in an hour that would have taken them a day to perform. I watch a lot of periodic reenactments on YouTube and PBS. I’ve seen the effort it took to do things we take for granted.

You can’t cherry pick the things you want to rekindle or lay the burden on the whole to follow suit. You have to see the whole in context. There are practices I emulate in my personal life that reflect former times. But they’re modified nonetheless. While I enjoy living backwards I don’t expect others to do the same. Are there practical merits? Of course. But it doesn’t mean a different approach is wrong.

We‘re in an economic crisis with unprecedented levels of poverty and homelessness in recent years. How does your suggestion work in light of that? I’ve done research in the past and I’m aware of the average income and level of giving in the church. The bulk of attendees are middle class and that was before the pandemic and the cost of living has increased. Your proposal makes no allowance for job losses nor the volume of positions being replaced that will expand. I see reports throughout the week of companies eliminating jobs because of ai. That’s the wrinkle you haven’t anticipated but I did.

stevevw said:

Do you think it needs to happen. I think there are some churches who do this and especially in poorer nations and Indigenous peoples. They don't place a lot of value on material goods. But as a family and community they help each other out with what they can afford. But they are also not living within a capitalist and consumer culture.

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It’s nice to speak of resources in grand terms. But when you put paper to pencil and factor in expenses you discover the coffers aren’t as flush as you imagine. Nor are the majority laden with discretionary income in spite materialism. They’re not spending on expensive things. Most of them are cheap. As prices rise on everyday items and living expenses increase reductions are made elsewhere which often impacts giving. They’re not going to give away their extra. We have people living in tents and cars and the majority don’t have an emergency fund or a year‘s worth of savings. Seeing that does something to your psyche.

The assault on the middle class will impact the church. The proportion of wealthy members to the rest is usually small unless you live in an area that serves the population. Willow Creek is a good example. They have a car ministry, grocery store, dental and vision clinic and more funded by their members. But the average home price in South Barrington is over a million dollars. They have the demographic to do things at that scale but it isn’t the norm. And there’s a lot of opportunities that accompany settings like that you won’t find elsewhere. I’ve attended the church myself and others like it.

We can‘t dismiss the negative consequences technology wrought or social media’s effect on our culture and mindset. I predicted a few years ago that would we enter a period of gross inequality and excess. I likened it to the Gilded Age based on the financial information I was seeing. Most people didn’t believe me but it’s beginning to unfold. More money will be made in this period than we ever saw in the pandemic and poverty will follow suit.

What I observe from my vantage point is gathering at a rapid pace. They’re trying to make as much as they can through multiple income streams to cushion the blow. They can sense what’s ahead and they’re making provisions. There’s a reciprocal fervor from those unable to follow suit. There was a time you wouldn’t see negative comments on a recipe that used a pound of butter. But we’ve reached the point where food is a status symbol as is a full larder.

This is a good example of popular content for a Costco haul. We’re watching people restock their cupboards and enjoying it and made the task aesthetically pleasing. I’m not knocking it because I buy in bulk and love my bins as well. But this wasn’t content a few years ago. Organizing was popular but now we’ve taken it to an extreme. This is the fallout from the lockdown and living vicariously through others as a coping mechanism or entertainment that’s been normalized.

We’ve entered a period of the idealized amongst the rest. We have a portion of society living the dream. Others aspiring to do the same. And the remainder trying to survive in light of the hardships. You’ll see things like that on one extreme and depression era cooking on another. Middle ground is eroding and leaving us with two groups of have‘s and have nots.

While it was possible to work together from different socioeconomic backgrounds in the past social credit will change that for a time. It’s designed to separate people into factions based on certain criteria. Access will move along those lines and you can see it in action in China. I remember a story about a couple traveling together. They wanted to fly first class and had the resources to do so. But his social credit score wouldn’t allow it. Only she could.

That’s why I encouraged people to read The Velvet Rope Economy. It demonstrates the parallel societies they’re creating through our experiences that are financially driven. Access and benefits are being removed and relegated to specific groups within the activity. It’s a modernized titanic of sorts that will keep us divided.

When you think of giving you’re imagining the money in your pocket but we’re going to digital currency. Now what? These are the challenges christians should have been contemplating. But they‘ve wasted their time while the devil kept building and things have progressed. We saw massive looting a few years ago when people weren’t in need. What do you think they’ll do when that’s not the case? That’s why everything’s under lock and key in stores. They’re already prepared.

What rational person is going to forgo their resources to live in an environment like that? They’ll do all the can to get away from it and protect their loved ones. Mobility is being hampered and you can’t make a plan without accepting that. We’re in a new society and the strategy must be based on today’s circumstances not what they did long ago.

Shared communities are a possibility if you get the right components. I watch a homesteader who was part of a group that worked a piece of land collectively and shared the bounty. They couldn’t afford to buy a property on their own and pooled their resources with friends to do so and they’re not believers. Doing is the christian’s achilles heel. You spend more time discussing ideas than taking action and want someone else to fund it.

No one should be seeking donations in an era of social media. Just push record and talk. It’s never been easier and millions are doing the same without experience. I’m reminded of a line from Thorin from The Hobbit in his conversation with Smaug and he tells him, “I did not look to see you so easily outwitted! You have grown slow and fat in your dotage. Slug.”

There’s a lot of truth in that statement when it comes to the church. If the majority sit on their hands there’s a price.

~bella

The Liturgist said:

Please explain to me what Scripture you are referring to and what you mean by “having accused children in celibacy”? I don’t understand how one could have any children at all while being celibate since the two are mutually exclusive.

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you said my point an overseer of the church is the husband of one wife, (meaninf married to his first wife) having faithful children (meaning he has children. Is there a place for celibacy? of course but not in the leadersip of the church

Smeadly said:

you said my point an overseer of the church is the husband of one wife, (meaninf married to his first wife) having faithful children (meaning he has children. Is there a place for celibacy?

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That’s an eisegetical misinterpretation of the Epistle of St. Timothy, whixh was talkimg anout the inelligibility of polygamists as opposed to celibates, since St. Paul and indeed St. Timothy are known to have been celibate. Indeed all bishops from the Early Church on that I am aware of aside from chorepiscopi (choir bishops, who are glorified archpriests) were either celibate monastics or married but celibate, past childbearing age, until the 16th century, with nearly all of the bishops of the persecuted Eastern Christians in Syria, Iraq, Armenia, Turkey, the former Soviet Union and elsewhere being monastics or semi-monastic religious.

Timothys status is less known except that he was alleged to be a bishop which means he was the husband of one wife and had faithful children, Paul was neither a deacon nor a bishop but an apostle

bèlla said:

There are a lot of things I appreciate about the Amish which attracted me in my early twenties. Community was a large part and I spent some time exploring their culture through the library. While I’ve never acknowledged it aloud my involvement with the slow food movement and related ideals like homesteading and slow living were probably influenced by them. I found my way to other Anabaptist groups down the road. Perhaps it was meant.

We were instructed to use our gifts and talents to the fullest. Mine happen to fall within areas greatly rewarded in our culture. Whether it was medicine, finance or entrepreneurship. I was always going to prosper somehow because of my makeup and personal interests. I was just like other kids of course but I spent more time at the library than the playground and had a hunger for knowledge that was never sated. And I loved being on stage. Whether I was speaking or performing I always enjoyed it.

I think God places people in certain areas and periods of time for a reason. The things I value differ greatly from my loved ones and aren’t a reflection of their influence. It’s things He laid on my heart or instilled as a passion within me. He would not have opened the doors He has if He needed me to live as you suggest. Everything He’s given me can be turned into revenue. That isn’t its starting point of course but an outgrowth of ideas and creativity. That’s how I think. I see products and businesses in my thoughts and interests. It has a purpose beyond plenty.

If I did as you recommend I could not afford the land that would enable me to share my overflow with widows and the needy. I could not afford my education out of pocket that will prepare me for the work that funds my philanthropic pursuits. The foundation and charitable giving would not occur. If I did as you suggest I would be laden with debt to build that entity and the property mentioned. I couldn’t fund it myself and owe no man as instructed. It would be disingenuous to squander my talents to mirror another’s actions when He’s given me the ability to do otherwise.

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This is where I think like minded people working together can achieve a lot at little expense. While at the same time giving a platform for those with different talents or abilities to shine their light.

I agree that individually we are to cultivate our belief by investing in being active like the Parable of the Talents, found in Matthew 25:14-30.

bèlla said:

The greatest problem of our modern age is man’s inability to see beyond the norm he knows. There’s no scope in his vision or horizon he glimpses within sight. And he places the people around him in that narrow perspective and wrongly assumes they see what he does. There‘s no room for diversity anymore. We want everyone to think and live as we do and that isn’t normal. Whether it’s the church or not. Difference is a fact of life and we’re afraid of it.

Click to expand...

I agree and we can find different ways to circumnavigate the system. When the GFC hit in 2008 some nations like Greece almost went bankrupt. But out of this came a new system of coops and bartering. People exchanged a skill for food or a service for a service and they were able to find ways to support the community.

Though this wasn't necessarily a Christian movement it was about helping people and its something Christians are in a position to get involved in and help setup. as I mentioned some churches have people with varying talents and skill helping their congregation. Thus bypassing the economic system and saving money. But also living out the bible by helping the poor and needy.

bèlla said:

This is where a greater understanding of the body is required and why the symbolism exists. Each part has its purpose and you can’t make blanket statements for that reason. All are not eyes or feet nor is everyone called to teach or preach. If we’re wholly invested in our mission and using the things God placed within us we won’t have time for scrutinize one another. We have to stop focusing on other people and get our house in order first and move within the parameters He instructs.

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It makes sense. If you have a supported church who is growing and standing strong on the bible and not consumed by the worries and requirements of this world then we will see individuals and the church as a whole thriving and shinning.

I think this is what attracts peoples attention and to God. That they see Christs example not so much in words but the way they live and put into practice Christs teachings. Otherwise what else is different. What will let people know without words that we are Christians.

bèlla said:

What’s the use of having the Holy Spirit if everyone has the answers? The Lord lays different things on our heart and we have to respect that if we want to work together. You can’t keep telling people what they should be doing because you feel it’s important. They may have a different assignment and that has to be respected. We have to get into the practice of asking before we respond. Allow them to tell us where the Lord is leading them and what He’s laid on their heart. Then we can provide a suggestion for service or recommendations for groups seeking others like them. You don’t stick people here and there haphazardly.

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I think by being unified in the gospel and teachings is the foundation that allows individuals to thrive and be their best selves. Like any organisation there is some structure in the practical sense. But from this people can express their individual gifts.

Without this there is confusion and division. That is one important point Paul and the early church fathers emphasised. The importance of unity. Such as a house divided is one that will fall.

bèlla said:

We need to move beyond our fascination with nostalgia. We’re always looking back to former times trying to recapture what has passed. If the Lord wanted us in that period we would have been born in that time. We will never be the early church because we’re needed in the here and now. The example wasn’t provided for us to romanticize. It’s a guideline we can use to do comparable things in our era but it won’t be exact.

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In the context that Christs teachings are unchanging regadless of culture we need to live like the early church. If there was one church that was closest to living as Christ taught and intended the church it was this time period during and immediately after the disciples.

Especially the first generations after the disciples who were still fresh and immerced in the teachings and Christs and the disciples recent lived examples. This was a time when most of the the leaders and many Christians were persecuted and executed for standing on those teachings.

Afterall this is not about social conventions but the simple gospel and teachings, the same ones Paul kept reminding the church and are still relevant today. For which some are now being persecuted for the same reasons. The more things change the more they stay the same when it comes to Christs church.

bèlla said:

If Paul had the technology we have today he would have built his ministry on the internet because of its reach. That wasn’t possible then so he used the tools available and we must follow suit.

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If Paul was alive today doing the same as he did in the early church, we would not be having so many problems we have today and I think he would have been punished and cancelled and even killed as he was not shy of telling the truth even if it meant getting him into trouble.

He may have used social media, it seems to be the trend for preaching all sorts of stuff lol. People seemed to listen to Paul and turn to God or hate him because they knew he spoke truth. But I think it would be his practical example that would mostly turn people to God. That he put his body, reputation and everything on the line to stand for Christ.

I think we need more Pauls today.

bèlla said:

We have safeguards that didn’t exist in that time. Like social security, pensions and welfare. Our cost of living is greater because we have more convenience and automation. We can finish tasks in an hour that would have taken them a day to perform. I watch a lot of periodic reenactments on YouTube and PBS. I’ve seen the effort it took to do things we take for granted.

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I think tech has improved lives. But with that has come with an ideology that tech itself and material wellbeing is like a god. The biggest threat from the seperation of church and state was the 'State' itself becoming a religion and replacing the church.

The welfare State has taken over and made laws which have bound people to the State. By extention this included the economic system where people are dependent on welfare.

Its a hard chain to break and in some way its like slavery in that people are bound and have little say or freedom in living apart from the system if they want to survive. That is why I think a line has to be drawn with how far we should depend on the State and Christians follow God and not the State.

bèlla said:

You can’t cherry pick the things you want to rekindle or lay the burden on the whole to follow suit. You have to see the whole in context. There are practices I emulate in my personal life that reflect former times. But they’re modified nonetheless. While I enjoy living backwards I don’t expect others to do the same. Are there practical merits? Of course. But it doesn’t mean a different approach is wrong.

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I agree with have to change with times to some extent. Like you said the internet has become a new form of communication. But the message should not change. For example the biblical teaching of adultery. This may seem outdated to modern ideology that its ok to have an affair if you find true love or that your current marriage is falling apart.

But this has been the same biblical law through all social changes to norms. The same with marriage, abortion, idolatry ect. Some things have to remain true regardless of social conventions. This is what makes Christs church different from the current social norms and what is causing conflicts.

But its something as a church we should stay true to as this is what differenciates us from the world and believe it or not is what makes the church attractive and a shining light. Because if Christ is truth then this shines in the darkness or the world as a guiding light to true freedom and happiness.

bèlla said:

We‘re in an economic crisis with unprecedented levels of poverty and homelessness in recent years. How does your suggestion work in light of that? I’ve done research in the past and I’m aware of the average income and level of giving in the church. The bulk of attendees are middle class and that was before the pandemic and the cost of living has increased. Your proposal makes no allowance for job losses nor the volume of positions being replaced that will expand. I see reports throughout the week of companies eliminating jobs because of ai. That’s the wrinkle you haven’t anticipated but I did.

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If we were to truely follow Christs teachings and examples and the early church then a solution would be found as God will never let His church down. I think its when the times get tough that Christians shine the most. Or should do. There will always be something they can give and its these little somethings that makeup the whole to get the church by.

Yes even if that means in some cases people cannot by the car of their dreams and can only get an average one. We can't pretend that consumerism and capitalism is not influencing people to conform to the world rather than putting Gods kingdom first. The world economic system is a powerful god that takes people away from Him.

bèlla said:

It’s nice to speak of resources in grand terms. But when you put paper to pencil and factor in expenses you discover the coffers aren’t as flush as you imagine. Nor are the majority laden with discretionary income in spite materialism. They’re not spending on expensive things. Most of them are cheap. As prices rise on everyday items and living expenses increase reductions are made elsewhere which often impacts giving. They’re not going to give away their extra. We have people living in tents and cars and the majority don’t have an emergency fund or a year‘s worth of savings. Seeing that does something to your psyche.

The assault on the middle class will impact the church. The proportion of wealthy members to the rest is usually small unless you live in an area that serves the population. Willow Creek is a good example. They have a car ministry, grocery store, dental and vision clinic and more funded by their members. But the average home price in South Barrington is over a million dollars. They have the demographic to do things at that scale but it isn’t the norm. And there’s a lot of opportunities that accompany settings like that you won’t find elsewhere. I’ve attended the church myself and others like it.

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I agree the economic climate has changed and the cost of living is not getting better but worse despite the promise that the same system would bring prosperity and freedom. It seems a small number are benefiting while a large growing number are struggling. Now owning a home is out of the reach of many.

I don't know what the answer is but I do know I don't trust the system to get things right and do the right thing by people. Its designed to feather the nests of those that manage to get into positions of influence and opportunity and not treating everyone the same with dignity.

I do know that its the Church and Christians who work best when things get hard for people both practically and spiritually. I think of how the church has a history of stepping in to clean up the mess left by the system when no one else bothered.

Like the soup kitchens that manage to feed 1,000s out of very little money and lots of love. But more can be done. Its not the individual but the combined church that makes the difference. For me if a church has a prime bit of realestate then sell it to help the poor and start meeting in a shed lol.

bèlla said:

We can‘t dismiss the negative consequences technology wrought or social media’s effect on our culture and mindset. I predicted a few years ago that would we enter a period of gross inequality and excess. I likened it to the Gilded Age based on the financial information I was seeing. Most people didn’t believe me but it’s beginning to unfold. More money will be made in this period than we ever saw in the pandemic and poverty will follow suit.

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Money is the root of all evil and if this becomes the god along with materialism then its going to spread and take over. I think we can see a evolution of this from the industrial revolution and the changes to the economy and community as a result.

I will get back to the rest of your post. thanks Steve.

Smeadly said:

Timothys status is less known except that he was alleged to be a bishop which means he was the husband of one wife and had faithful children, Paul was neither a deacon nor a bishop but an apostle

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Paul was all the above. An apostle, elder, bishop and priest. He acted in all these roles. He ordained Timothy and many others as did Peter. They could only do that acting as a bishop. They imparted this authority onto others like Titus and Timothy who in turn ordained others as bishops.

I would not argue apostle or elder but the other 2 (priest and bishop) where do you find that in scripture?

Paidiske said:

A very interesting read. Does it resonate for you? How might we, as church leaders, best respond?

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Dear friends, grace and peace to you in Christ’s name.
Thank you for engaging so deeply with Melissa Florer‑Bixler’s article, “Capitalism is killing the small church,” and for asking: Does it resonate? And how might we, as church leaders, best respond?

1. Resonance with Reality​

Yes! deeply. Florer‑Bixler articulates what many pastors and congregants feel but seldom name: our people aren't spiritually apathetic—they're exhausted by the economic system. As she writes, countless congregants are juggling multiple jobs, drowning in debt, skipping worship to meet workplace demands, and feeling the squeeze of gig work and student loans. This exhaustion isn't a failure of faith. It’s a consequence of an economy that demands more hours than lives permit.

One forum member echoed this in raw simplicity:

“Our economy is collapsing … young people are scrambling for a smaller and smaller amount of an ever‑shrinking economic pie … we are one of them.” — linux.poet

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Another noted how Sunday worship is compromised by retail schedules:

“My old parish has a 24/7/365 prayer room… My new parish… open but only four days… expanding soon. … It does bring about miracles…” chevyontheriver Christian Forums

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These testimonies underscore what Florer‑Bixler frames: it’s not lack of faith or creativity, but economic pressure stealing time and spiritual life from small churches.

2. How Can Church Leaders Respond?​

a) Reframe the Narrative
Resist blaming millennials or citing “busyness.” Instead, narrate the truth: our people are drained by systems that ask more than they can give. Embrace theological critiques of capitalism echoing voices from liberation theology and Christian social teaching that call for justice, dignity, and Sabbath rhythms over relentless productivity.

b) Build Mutual Support & Labor Advocacy
Florer‑Bixler challenges us to help congregants organize for just labor: to support fair wages, reasonable hours, debt relief, and collective negotiating not just as activists, but as pastoral leaders rooted in Jesus’ worker identity. When we walk beside labor struggles offer financial workshops, letter-writing campaigns, prayer for workers on strike we do justice in faith and practice.

c) Offer Practical Relief in Worship Spaces
Forum testimonies highlight how small gestures matter:

• Offering free meals or groceries on Sundays to families under pressure.
• Creating accessible worship scheduling for those working weekends or gig jobs.
• Opening sustained prayer spaces where people can pause and pray amid turmoil (like the 24/7 room mentioned above).

d) Cultivate a Theology of Rest and Enough
Remind congregants that our wealth isn't defined by greater output or growth, but by presence, Sabbath, community, and worship. Small church life thrives on relationships, not programs; on shared vulnerability, not metrics Faith and Leadership.

3. A Pastor’s Conviction for Action​

So how might we respond, pastorally and courageously?

1. Speak the truth with love: Name that the church's decline is not spiritual dryness, but spiritual fatigue in a culture that idolizes more productivity and profit.
2. Foster solidarity: Encourage members to use their voice and votes for fair labor laws, equitable wages, and debt relief policies.
3. Pray practically: Set aside Sundays or worship days for thanksgiving, grief, and lament over economic burdens and invite experts to equip members in biblical discipleship for economic justice.
4. Build small church resilience: Model community that isn't transactional. Encourage gift-based participation, cross-generational care, shared meals, and mutual aid networks.

4. A Word of Hope​

Brothers and sisters, small churches are not dying because faith has waned. They are under siege by a system that denies humans time, presence, and Sabbath. But the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead is still empowering communities to resist, rest, gather, and rebuild in resurrection life.

Let us lead not by chasing those metrics but by embodying belonging, justice, and evening rest. Small churches may have small numbers—but they bear big witness, because our identity lies not in programs but in God's presence among us.

May this not only resonate, but transform us renewing pastoral vision and communal resilience rooted in the good news that grace endures where capitalism exhausts.

In hope and prayer with you,
Servant in Christ

pastorwaris said:

Another noted how Sunday worship is compromised by retail schedules.

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"“My old parish has a 24/7/365 prayer room… My new parish… open but only four days… expanding soon. … It does bring about miracles…” chevyontheriver Christian Forums"

pastorwaris said:

These testimonies underscore what Florer‑Bixler frames: it’s not lack of faith or creativity, but economic pressure stealing time and spiritual life from small churches.

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I don't know how this quote notes to you how Sunday worship is compromised by retail schedules. That may be your thesis, but what I wrote has nothing to do with Sunday worship being compromised by retail schedules. It is about parishes that have fully or partially adopted perpetual adoration, where someone is available to the Lord in prayer totally in addition to a Sunday worship schedule. Also, in addition to that Sunday schedule is the long custom at both parishes, and numerous other parishes, of daily mass, actually well attended. Which means, at least in these two parishes I am directly acquainted with, there is a continued spiritual life in these parishes. It is not going to collapse due to economic pressures, or even pressures from youth sports programs.

A thought came to me was why why are there small churches that are subject to the dictates of capitalist society. As though they are a corner shop being put out of business. I though the church was sort of independent of the world.

I think in some ways the church has become like a marketplace of churches. Where there are small independent churches that rise and fall because they are out there on their own without a larger body that supports them.

chevyontheriver said:

I don't know how this quote notes to you how Sunday worship is compromised by retail schedules. That may be your thesis, but what I wrote has nothing to do with Sunday worship being compromised by retail schedules. It is about parishes that have fully or partially adopted perpetual adoration, where someone is available to the Lord in prayer totally in addition to a Sunday worship schedule. Also, in addition to that Sunday schedule is the long custom at both parishes, and numerous other parishes, of daily mass, actually well attended. Which means, at least in these two parishes I am directly acquainted with, there is a continued spiritual life in these parishes. It is not going to collapse due to economic pressures, or even pressures from youth sports programs.

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Absolutely, thank you for bringing your experience into this important conversation, My Dear Brother,

And grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let me begin by saying how encouraging it is to hear that your parish has cultivated a vibrant spiritual life through perpetual adoration, daily Mass, and regular attendance. That’s no small thing! In a time when many are struggling to keep their churches open, your community’s commitment to prayer and presence is a testimony to what the Church can still be when rooted in devotion.

But let’s lean in together to the heart of the original conversation and the question posed to church leaders:

"Does this reality resonate with you? How might we as church leaders best respond?"

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You shared that your parish is thriving despite cultural and economic pressures and praise God for that! However, the article and discussion aren’t dismissing that some parishes are healthy. Rather, it’s naming a broader and painful trend a cry from many faithful small churches that are in danger. It’s not an isolated anecdote; it’s a widespread phenomenon across the Body of Christ.

Let’s Clarify the Point About Sunday Worship and Schedules​

You're right: your original point was about perpetual adoration and deep parish life. But when others referenced Sunday worship being compromised, it wasn’t meant as a contradiction of your experience. It was highlighting another side of the same coin.

Many small churches particularly Protestant ones in lower-income areas do not have the same attendance or resources for daily gatherings, nor the infrastructure for perpetual adoration. And the growing demand of jobs, especially in retail, logistics, and healthcare, often makes it impossible for their members to attend on Sundays at all.

So while your parish has the stability to flourish, others are being pulled apart not by lack of desire but by a system that overworks and underpays. The comment about Sunday being compromised isn't universal it’s contextual.

How Might We Respond as Leaders?​

Let’s go back to the question: “How should we respond?”

1. Celebrate the thriving parishes like yours as models of what spiritual hunger and discipline look like.
2. But also, listen deeply to the hurting parishes those being choked by rising rent, aging congregations, bivocational pastors, and members who are too drained to show up.
3. And then, as leaders, we must bridge the gap by advocating, mentoring, resourcing, and even funding those churches struggling to breathe.

Dear Brother , your parish is a light on a hill but that doesn’t mean other lamps aren’t flickering. In fact, Paul reminds us in 1 Corinthians 12 that:

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.” (1 Cor. 12:26)

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We rejoice with your parish and we also suffer alongside those whose sanctuaries grow quiet not from spiritual coldness, but economic burnout.
So let’s take your testimony as fuel, not proof that the problem doesn’t exist but proof that a faithful remnant can push back against these forces.

Let’s use that strength to uplift others, to ask:

• How can we resource smaller churches that don’t have perpetual adoration?
• How can we offer liturgical alternatives for people who must work Sundays?
• How can we form a united response as pastors, priests, and lay leaders to resist a culture that tells people they’re only worth what they can produce?

The Church Is Not a Casualty of Capitalism But It Must Not Be a Companion to It Either​

Let’s remain spiritually alert and economically aware. May we never become so spiritually successful that we become spiritually detached from the struggles of the rest of the Body.

Because at the end of the day, the church isn’t thriving if just my parish is. The church is thriving when the whole Bride of Christ is radiant and without blemish (Eph. 5:27).

With hope in Christ,
Pastor Waris

pastorwaris said:

... As she writes, countless congregants are juggling multiple jobs, drowning in debt, skipping worship to meet workplace demands, and feeling the squeeze of gig work and student loans. This exhaustion isn't a failure of faith. It’s a consequence of an economy that demands more hours than lives permit.

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The workplace or economy may propose but does not demand that we participate in actions opposed to our faith. We are free to participate or not. And the state of the workplace is certainly not a by-product of capitalism, properly understood as the right to private property and the moral freedom to use it as one legally wills.

If your argument substitutes "consumerism" for "capitalism" then I think your argument may make more sense.

One might then ask: Has the cardinal virtue of temperance in the pursuit of worldly goods been lost to us?