Futurist Only Leaving a Rapture note for unbelieving family

Jamdoc · Thursday at 12:47 AM

truthuprootsevil said:
That is loving and very considerate, doing what you can to help or try to help those you love.

In the 1960s and '70s I believed that people would start disappearing, the Lord was going to take them because that's what most churches preached.

In the 1980s I began to do some research to give to a friend concerning the rapture she was curious. And the more I researched the more I was led to the truth. The verses that ministers use to support the pre-tribulation rapture actually don't.
1) 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, ""at the last trumpet."" For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[At the last trumpet, this is going to occur at the last trumpet after it sounds. When you go to Revelation 11:15 and read what happens at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, it reads the seven angels sounded and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and he shall reign forever. Verse 18 tells us that the nations were angry, AND THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged,...... When the seventh angel sounds, Jesus is here judgment is here. He is not taking people from Earth and then coming back three and a half years later.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 now we beseech you brothern, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him. Verse 3 - let no man deceive you by any means: for that day ""shall not come,"" except there come a falling away first, and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition. [ A falling away in belief in Christ by the church and the revealing of the Antichrist who is the man of sin the son of perdition. There are those who say that Judas was the son of perdition, Judas was dead, already known about, so how can he be revealed.

Matthew 24:40-41 One will be taken and the other left [doesn't mean they will be raptured away pre tribulation. Verses 38/39 tells us that the people didn't know the flood was coming until it came and when it came it was too late. Noah and his family was saved simultaneously with the other people of the world being flooded out.

3) 1 Thessalonians 15-17 for this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord [remain, remain from what]. Very 16 for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and The voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. [ The Lord will descend, he's coming down, archangel will announce it, and the seventh trumpet will sound. And as the Lord is descending the dead will rise first] verse 17 THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.... [Remain, from the tribulation, many Christians will be slaughtered. Meeting him in the air as he's coming down we're going up]

As written in the book of Revelations Christians will be beheaded simply meaning killed.

The "last trumpet" is not a reference to Revelation, which had not been written and would not be written for decades after Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Paul wouldn't be communicating to the Corinthians referencing a book that wouldn't be written for over 30 years yet.

Rather, the "last trumpet" is a reference to Jesus' Olivet Discourse

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who blows the trumpet there?
Jesus

and that (and 1 Thessalonians 4's passage as well) are referencing this:

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

The Lord seen in the sky, blows the trumpet, coming like lightning.. that should all sound familiar. Jesus was identifying Himself as the Lord God from this passage (you can use this when a Muslim claims that Jesus never said He is God, it is a direct reference).
Then His people are as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign (a banner) upon the land.. in other words.. God's people are raised up above the land, in the sky. That should sound familiar. Paul knew the scripture Jesus was referring to and referred to it himself. Paul did not just randomly pull doctrine out of the ether. Everything Paul taught was at least partially revealed in the Old Testament. Just as the Bereans did, you should take everything that Paul talks about and check it against Old Testament scripture to see if its true. Never take a person who claims to be an Apostle at his word, always take it according to His Word.

But anyway, note in that passage... who blows the Trumpet: The Lord God, aka Jesus.

So, 1 Thessalonians 4, the Olivet Discourse, and Zechariah 9 all have God blowing the trumpet. Not an angel.

but Revelation 11's 7th trumpet... is blown by an angel, not God. They are not the same thing.

truthuprootsevil · Thursday at 11:06 AM

Jamdoc said:
The "last trumpet" is not a reference to Revelation, which had not been written and would not be written for decades after Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Paul wouldn't be communicating to the Corinthians referencing a book that wouldn't be written for over 30 years yet.

Rather, the "last trumpet" is a reference to Jesus' Olivet Discourse

Who blows the trumpet there?
Jesus

and that (and 1 Thessalonians 4's passage as well) are referencing this:

Zechariah 9

The Lord seen in the sky, blows the trumpet, coming like lightning.. that should all sound familiar. Jesus was identifying Himself as the Lord God from this passage (you can use this when a Muslim claims that Jesus never said He is God, it is a direct reference).
Then His people are as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign (a banner) upon the land.. in other words.. God's people are raised up above the land, in the sky. That should sound familiar. Paul knew the scripture Jesus was referring to and referred to it himself. Paul did not just randomly pull doctrine out of the ether. Everything Paul taught was at least partially revealed in the Old Testament. Just as the Bereans did, you should take everything that Paul talks about and check it against Old Testament scripture to see if its true. Never take a person who claims to be an Apostle at his word, always take it according to His Word.

But anyway, note in that passage... who blows the Trumpet: The Lord God, aka Jesus.

So, 1 Thessalonians 4, the Olivet Discourse, and Zechariah 9 all have God blowing the trumpet. Not an angel.

but Revelation 11's 7th trumpet... is blown by an angel, not God. They are not the same thing.

I gave my views, as well as the views of millions of others Christians. You gave yours.

The church has many different denominations cause of their differences in theologies / belief's / interpretations of many scriptures.

The book of Revelation is believed to had been written some point in the 90 ADs but before 97 AD. It is believed to have been written in the late years of the life of the Apostle John on the island of Plasmos.

Who Wrote the Book of Revelation? — Blog — Groundwork Bible Study

Church tradition holds that the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation. While some scholars have questioned John’s authorship, key theological themes and attributions from early church leaders, like Irenaeus of Lyons, affirm that John wrote Revelation. Yet, John points to another, a divine...

groundworkonline.com

Who Wrote Revelation? - Thomas Nelson Bibles

Learn more about Revelation, the story of Jesus' ultimate triumph over evil and the fulfillment of God's plan of redemption.

www.thomasnelsonbibles.com

The time span between when Paul wrote his letters and John wrote his has no bearing on truth, and 30 years is a very small time frame. Just as the time span between the Old Testament and the New Testament has no bearing on truth. And I am referring to time span not differences in beliefs.

Now if you believe Jesus is the one blowing the horn that is for you to believe and those who believe like you. the Bible does not state Jesus is going to blow the horn. The horn is with him just like his angels are with him and the Bible specifically says the angel will blow the seventh trumpet.

And if you believe in what John Nelson Darby / Margaret McDonald began to teach in the 19th century concerning the pre-tribulation rapture, which took almost complete hold of the church in the 1950s that is your right to do so. At least half of the Christian's disagree. There are Christians who believe and as you in pre, there are those who believe in mid, and there are those like me who believe in post tribulation rapture.

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

I'm not going to touch on anything else you said, the Bible tells us don't have words over scripture as I said at the beginning you stated your views and I've stayed in mine, have a good day.

Jamdoc · Thursday at 2:56 PM

truthuprootsevil said:
I gave my views, as well as the views of millions of others Christians. You gave yours.

The church has many different denominations cause of their differences in theologies / belief's / interpretations of many scriptures.

The book of Revelation is believed to had been written some point in the 90 ADs but before 97 AD. It is believed to have been written in the late years of the life of the Apostle John on the island of Plasmos.

Who Wrote the Book of Revelation? — Blog — Groundwork Bible Study

Church tradition holds that the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation. While some scholars have questioned John’s authorship, key theological themes and attributions from early church leaders, like Irenaeus of Lyons, affirm that John wrote Revelation. Yet, John points to another, a divine...

groundworkonline.com

Who Wrote Revelation? - Thomas Nelson Bibles

Learn more about Revelation, the story of Jesus' ultimate triumph over evil and the fulfillment of God's plan of redemption.

www.thomasnelsonbibles.com

The time span between when Paul wrote his letters and John wrote his has no bearing on truth, and 30 years is a very small time frame. Just as the time span between the Old Testament and the New Testament has no bearing on truth. And I am referring to time span not differences in beliefs.

Paul was instructing a Church, Paul did not say "In a future book of the bible that'll be written decades from now when some of you will be dead, (including me!) they'll explain what the last trumpet is, trust me bro"

Paul was referencing something already in scripture, not something that was yet to be written.
If the Bereans had found that Paul was introducing new doctrines without being backed by the Old Testament with Paul saying "trust me there will be a book of scripture written later that'll cover this" they'd have stoned him to death (and rightly so)

truthuprootsevil said:
Now if you believe Jesus is the one blowing the horn that is for you to believe and those who believe like you. the Bible does not state Jesus is going to blow the horn. The horn is with him just like his angels are with him and the Bible specifically says the angel will blow the seventh trumpet.

I just quoted scripture that shows that the Lord God blows the Trumpet, and Jesus said He would send His angels with the sound of the trumpet. Directly referencing the passage that said the Lord God would blow the Trumpet.

This is not an "opinion" this is the written revelation of God saying it.

How do you see this:

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

yes
this

and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet

and say "well that's just your opinion that Jesus blows the trumpet"

truthuprootsevil said:
And if you believe in what John Nelson Darby / Margaret McDonald began to teach in the 19th century concerning the pre-tribulation rapture, which took almost complete hold of the church in the 1950s that is your right to do so. At least half of the Christian's disagree. There are Christians who believe and as you in pre, there are those who believe in mid, and there are those like me who believe in post tribulation rapture.

I never supported pre-tribulationism. Not in the slightest. The passage I gave from Zechariah 9 is clear that they are in Tribulation, and Jesus coming to the rescue is the end of tribulation (and the beginning of the Wrath of God, see Matthew 24:29-30 and compare it to Revelation 6:12-17, which comes AFTER the 5th seal, which is.. great tribulation. See Revelation 7:14, this is the end of great tribulation, and the beginning of something else.. the Lord's great day of Wrath Revelation 6:17)

truthuprootsevil said:
Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

I'm not going to touch on anything else you said, the Bible tells us don't have words over scripture as I said at the beginning you stated your views and I've stayed in mine, have a good day.

It also says that Iron sharpens iron, and it never said not to meditate over and discuss scripture.

truthuprootsevil · Thursday at 6:44 PM

Jamdoc said:
Paul was instructing a Church, Paul did not say "In a future book of the bible that'll be written decades from now when some of you will be dead, (including me!) they'll explain what the last trumpet is, trust me bro"

Paul was referencing something already in scripture, not something that was yet to be written.
If the Bereans had found that Paul was introducing new doctrines without being backed by the Old Testament with Paul saying "trust me there will be a book of scripture written later that'll cover this" they'd have stoned him to death (and rightly so)

I just quoted scripture that shows that the Lord God blows the Trumpet, and Jesus said He would send His angels with the sound of the trumpet. Directly referencing the passage that said the Lord God would blow the Trumpet.

This is not an "opinion" this is the written revelation of God saying it.

How do you see this:

yes
this

and say "well t

Jamdoc said:
hat's just your opinion that Jesus blows the trumpet"

I never supported pre-tribulationism. Not in the slightest. The passage I gave from Zechariah 9 is clear that they are in Tribulation, and Jesus coming to the rescue is the end of tribulation (and the beginning of the Wrath of God, see Matthew 24:29-30 and compare it to Revelation 6:12-17, which comes AFTER the 5th seal, which is.. great tribulation. See Revelation 7:14, this is the end of great tribulation, something else.. the Lord's great day of Wrath Revelation 6:17)

It also says that Iron sharpens iron, and it never said not to meditate over and discuss scripture.

Well then there's no need to leave your loved ones a note if you don't believe in pre tribulation rapture / your disappearance!

I have no idea what your first paragraph and this reply of yours mean when you say a future book of the Bible!

I never said Paul was referring to something that wasn't already written, but now I will say Paul was referring to the Future.

You believe the Lord blows the horn, fine believe that, I repeat, the Bible doesn't say it.

Discuss / debate / argue / all boils down to the same thing disagreements on the meaning of scripture, which we are not to do because it is has been deemed pointless.

God does not approve of believers debating doctrine.

2 Timothy 2:14 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Now you have the last word, I will not reply again goodbye.

Jamdoc · Thursday at 8:49 PM

truthuprootsevil said:
Well then there's no need to leave your loved ones a note if you don't believe in pre tribulation rapture / your disappearance!

I'm not the thread OP, I actually stated that I believe that's not prudent as #1 I don't believe in pretrib rapture and #2, the bible makes no such case for post rapture salvation in fact the opposite it makes the argument that once the rapture happens, there is no more repentance.

truthuprootsevil said:
I have no idea what your first paragraph and this reply of yours mean when you say a future book of the Bible!

Paul wrote the letters to the Corinthians in the early 50's AD. Revelation was written around 95 AD, so for Paul to be referencing Revelation regarding the last trumpet, would be very confusing to the Corinthians, who would need to wait 40 years to understand what Paul was writing about if Paul had actually wrote about the 7 trumpets in Revelation.
But rather I am stating that Paul is referring to the Olivet Discourse, and Zechariah 9. These would be materials available to the Corinthians, the Olivet Discourse at least as orally passed knowledge (they weren't written down right away), and Zechariah as scripture of the Old Testament.

truthuprootsevil said:
I never said Paul was referring to something that wasn't already written, but now I will say Paul was referring to the Future.

That'd be extremely confusing to the Corinthians, the primary audience for his epistle. To not know what Paul was talking about for 40 years.

truthuprootsevil said:
You believe the Lord blows the horn, fine believe that, I repeat, the Bible doesn't say it.

But I quoted it..
I quoted scripture.. literally

Zechariah 9:

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

How much highlighting do I need to do to show that it is literally in the text?

and no, this isn't pointless it is about edification.

posting scripture, comparing scripture to scripture. Is that not what we SHOULD do as the body of Christ?

truthuprootsevil · 2025-08-26T15:24:53-0500

Jamdoc said:
I'm not the thread OP, I actually stated that I believe that's not prudent as #1 I don't believe in pretrib rapture and #2, the bible makes no such case for post rapture salvation in fact the opposite it makes the argument that once the rapture happens, there is no more repentance.

Paul wrote the letters to the Corinthians in the early 50's AD. Revelation was written around 95 AD, so for Paul to be referencing Revelation regarding the last trumpet, would be very confusing to the Corinthians, who would need to wait 40 years to understand what Paul was writing about if Paul had actually wrote about the 7 trumpets in Revelation.
But rather I am stating that Paul is referring to the Olivet Discourse, and Zechariah 9. These would be materials available to the Corinthians, the Olivet Discourse at least as orally passed knowledge (they weren't written down right away), and Zechariah as scripture of the Old Testament.

That'd be extremely confusing to the Corinthians, the primary audience for his epistle. To not know what Paul was talking about for 40 years.

But I quoted it..
I quoted scripture.. literally

Zechariah 9:

How much highlighting do I need to do to show that it is literally in the text?

and no, this isn't pointless it is about edification.

posting scripture, comparing scripture to scripture. Is that not what we SHOULD do as the body of Christ?

Debating is pointless according to Paul.

Jamdoc · 2025-08-26T15:36:33-0500

truthuprootsevil said:
Debating is pointless according to Paul.

But your argument is that it's just my opinion, when scripture outright states it.

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