Is the Rapture credible?

1Tonne · Wednesday at 10:06 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Your statement reflects a sincere engagement with eschatological themes, yet it diverges from Catholic doctrine in several key respects. The Church teaches that Christ will return in glory at the end of time, not merely at the "end of the age," and that this Second Coming will be definitive, ushering in the resurrection of the dead, the final judgement, and the fulfilment of the Kingdom of God (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], §§675–682). The notion of a literal 1,000-year reign of Christ with martyrs, as described in Revelation 20:4–6, has been interpreted symbolically by the Church and is not affirmed as a future historical epoch. The Church rejects millenarianism in all its forms, including the idea of a temporal messianic kingdom prior to the final judgement (CCC §676).

Furthermore, the Catholic understanding of the resurrection and judgement is universal: all the dead will rise, both the righteous and the wicked, and each will be judged according to their deeds (John 5:28–29; CCC §§1038–1041). The imagery of meeting Christ "in the clouds" (cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:17) is understood as a metaphor for the final gathering of the faithful, not a separate event preceding judgement. You are encouraged to read these passages within the broader context of the Church’s magisterial teaching, which safeguards both the mystery and the unity of God’s salvific plan.

I do recognise the Catholic Church’s official teaching on these matters, but I hold to a different understanding based on the plain reading of Scripture.
Revelation 20:4–6 explicitly speaks of martyrs coming to life and reigning with Christ for a thousand years. John then says, “The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.” This seems to clearly distinguish between a first resurrection (of martyrs) and a second resurrection (of all people for final judgment). To interpret this entirely symbolically, in my view, undermines the natural flow of the passage.

I agree with you that at the end of time, all the dead will be raised and judged (John 5:28–29). But prior to that, Revelation points to a unique period where Christ reigns with those who laid down their lives for Him. This fits with passages like 2 Timothy 2:12, “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”

Regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Paul says believers will be “caught up… in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” While Catholic teaching tends to see this as purely symbolic, the language seems to suggest a literal event tied to Christ’s coming.

I fully agree that Christ’s Second Coming will be glorious and final in the sense that it ushers in judgment and eternity. Where we differ is in whether Revelation 20 describes a literal intermediate reign. I believe Scripture teaches it does.

Ultimately, I think it’s wise to elevate Christ’s own words and the straightforward meaning of Scripture above later doctrinal developments. As Jesus Himself said in John 17:17, “Your word is truth.”

Adventist Dissident · Thursday at 7:12 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Catholics are called to assent to the Church’s definitive teaching that there will be one visible return of Christ in glory at the end of time, coinciding with the general resurrection and final judgement (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church §§668–682). The notion of a secret or pre-tribulational rapture, wherein believers are taken up prior to a period of tribulation, is incompatible with this eschatological framework and lacks foundation in Sacred Tradition and the unanimous witness of the Church Fathers. While the historical novelty of the rapture theory—popularised in the 19th century by John Nelson Darby—is not, in itself, a dogmatic refutation, it does underscore its absence from the apostolic deposit of faith and its divergence from the Church’s consistent interpretation of Scripture, particularly regarding passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 and Matthew 24:29–31, which the Church reads in light of Christ’s singular Parousia.

ok , that was the general understanding of the Church up until 1780 or so. Then Bibles were produced and people started reading. Then someone said. What is this "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" Christ is talking about. This Feast Christ prepares? That is where the Rapture comes from. Right or Wrong. I don't know, but that is the basis of the teaching. When do we go to heaven. Is there this part where we go to heaven? if we have not died first.

Xeno.of.athens · Thursday at 7:28 AM

Adventist Dissident said:
ok , that was the general understanding of the Church up until 1780 or so. Then Bibles were produced and people started reading. Then someone said. What is this "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" Christ is talking about. This Feast Christ prepares? That is where the Rapture comes from. Right or Wrong. I don't know, but that is the basis of the teaching. When do we go to heaven. Is there this part where we go to heaven? if we have not died first.

You are correct to note that popular interpretations of eschatological imagery—such as the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (cf. Revelation 19:9)—have evolved, particularly in Protestant circles following increased biblical literacy post-Enlightenment. However, according to Catholic dogmatic teaching, the concept of a “Rapture” as a discrete, pre-tribulational event wherein believers are taken bodily into heaven prior to final judgement is not affirmed.

The Church teaches that entry into heaven ordinarily follows death and particular judgement (CCC 1021–1022). The resurrection of the body and the final judgement occur at the end of time (CCC 988–1004), when Christ returns in glory (CCC 1040). The “Feast” imagery in Revelation symbolises the consummation of the covenant between Christ and the Church, not a temporal escape from tribulation.

Thus, you do not ascend to heaven apart from death unless divinely exempted, as in the cases of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Assumption, CCC 966) or Elijah (cf. 2 Kings 2:11), both exceptional and not normative.

Your inquiry reflects a sincere engagement with Scripture, but Catholic doctrine remains clear: salvation history culminates in resurrection, judgement, and eternal communion—not in a rapture event.

1Tonne · Thursday at 2:29 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
You are correct to note that popular interpretations of eschatological imagery—such as the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (cf. Revelation 19:9)—have evolved, particularly in Protestant circles following increased biblical literacy post-Enlightenment. However, according to Catholic dogmatic teaching, the concept of a “Rapture” as a discrete, pre-tribulational event wherein believers are taken bodily into heaven prior to final judgement is not affirmed.

The Church teaches that entry into heaven ordinarily follows death and particular judgement (CCC 1021–1022). The resurrection of the body and the final judgement occur at the end of time (CCC 988–1004), when Christ returns in glory (CCC 1040). The “Feast” imagery in Revelation symbolises the consummation of the covenant between Christ and the Church, not a temporal escape from tribulation.

Thus, you do not ascend to heaven apart from death unless divinely exempted, as in the cases of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Assumption, CCC 966) or Elijah (cf. 2 Kings 2:11), both exceptional and not normative.

Your inquiry reflects a sincere engagement with Scripture, but Catholic doctrine remains clear: salvation history culminates in resurrection, judgement, and eternal communion—not in a rapture event.

Just asking because of the way your posts are worded. Are you using Ai to make your responses?

Xeno.of.athens · Thursday at 3:39 PM

1Tonne said:
Just asking because of the way your posts are worded. Are you using Ai to make your responses?

I used AI to gather facts.

1Tonne · Thursday at 3:49 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
I used AI to gather facts.

Just seems as though you are using Ai to make your entire post.

NOTE: If you are Catholic, then Ai will make an argument for you with a Catholic bias. So, you may feel as though your view is 100% correct, but in reality, Ai is just giving you facts based on your bias.
For example, if you tell Ai that you believe in Evolution, then Ai will give you evidence that Evolution is real and it will seem convincing. But if you tell Ai that you believe in creationism, then it will give you the evidence for creationism. So, when using Ai, you are best to ask it for evidence from both views. This way, you get a less skewed bias from the Ai.

Xeno.of.athens · Thursday at 3:51 PM

1Tonne said:
Just seems as though you are using Ai to make your entire post.

NOTE: If you are Catholic, then Ai will make an argument for you with a Catholic bias. So, you may feel as though your view is 100% correct, but in reality, Ai is just giving you facts based on your bias.
For example, if you tell Ai that you believe in Evolution, then Ai will give you evidence that Evolution is real and it will seem convincing. But if you tell Ai that you believe in creationism, then it will give you the evidence for creationism. So, when using Ai, you are best to ask it for evidence from both views. This way, you get a less skewed bias from the Ai.

Don't worry yourself too much about how I write my posts. It's their contents that you might want to answer.

1Tonne · Thursday at 4:04 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Don't worry yourself too much about how I write my posts. It's their contents that you might want to answer.

The thing is, the way that you are answering is not you. It is ai
I can easily answer your contents by just copying and pasting from ai with my bias also.

Adventist Dissident · Thursday at 5:07 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
You are correct to note that popular interpretations of eschatological imagery—such as the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (cf. Revelation 19:9)—have evolved, particularly in Protestant circles following increased biblical literacy post-Enlightenment. However, according to Catholic dogmatic teaching, the concept of a “Rapture” as a discrete, pre-tribulational event wherein believers are taken bodily into heaven prior to final judgement is not affirmed.

The Church teaches that entry into heaven ordinarily follows death and particular judgement (CCC 1021–1022). The resurrection of the body and the final judgement occur at the end of time (CCC 988–1004), when Christ returns in glory (CCC 1040). The “Feast” imagery in Revelation symbolises the consummation of the covenant between Christ and the Church, not a temporal escape from tribulation.

Thus, you do not ascend to heaven apart from death unless divinely exempted, as in the cases of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Assumption, CCC 966) or Elijah (cf. 2 Kings 2:11), both exceptional and not normative.

Your inquiry reflects a sincere engagement with Scripture, but Catholic doctrine remains clear: salvation history culminates in resurrection, judgement, and eternal communion—not in a rapture event.

is this now a Catholic site?

Xeno.of.athens · Thursday at 11:13 PM

1Tonne said:
The thing is, the way that you are answering is not you. It is ai
I can easily answer your contents by just copying and pasting from ai with my bias also.

No facts are mine, they are all from sources external to me. If the facts are not of interest to you then ignore the posts.

Xeno.of.athens · Thursday at 11:16 PM

Adventist Dissident said:
is this now a Catholic site?

It should be; that would elevate the conversations!

Aaron112 · Friday at 12:13 AM

Adventist Dissident said:
is this now a Catholic site?

(just passing). Sadly, has been so for a decade or longer.

Aaron112 · Friday at 12:14 AM

1Tonne said:
The thing is, the way that you are answering is not you. It is ai
I can easily answer your contents by just copying and pasting from ai with my bias also.

aye, matey, that's possible.

Adventist Dissident · Friday at 10:19 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
It should be; that would elevate the conversations!

how do you figure?

Xeno.of.athens · Friday at 10:30 PM

Adventist Dissident said:
how do you figure?

Catholic theology is so deep and expansive - covering every aspect of human life and every kind of human endeavour. Plus it is deep in history and philosophy. This is unlike the kind of theology that individuals derive from their personal bible reading.

Adventist Dissident · Friday at 11:56 PM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Catholic theology is so deep and expansive - covering every aspect of human life and every kind of human endeavour. Plus it is deep in history and philosophy. This is unlike the kind of theology that individuals derive from their personal bible reading.

so you are comparing Orthodox and Protestant theology to personal bilbe reading.

Xeno.of.athens · Saturday at 12:22 AM

Adventist Dissident said:
so you are comparing Orthodox and Protestant theology to personal bilbe reading.

Not Orthodox theology, that is ancient and full of early Church Fathers' Holy Tradition. And the Older Protestant denominations have achieved a fair degree of depth in the 500 years since their beginning. But with independent evangelical churches theology is sometimes the personal interpretations of the pastor or of a group of elders and that kind of theology has had insufficient time to develop depth and scope.

Adventist Dissident · Saturday at 12:36 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
Not Orthodox theology, that is ancient and full of early Church Fathers' Holy Tradition. And the Older Protestant denominations have achieved a fair degree of depth in the 500 years since their beginning. But with independent evangelical churches theology is sometimes the personal interpretations of the pastor or of a group of elders and that kind of theology has had insufficient time to develop depth and scope.

can you give an example

Xeno.of.athens · Saturday at 4:12 AM

Adventist Dissident said:
can you give an example

An example of what, exactly?

Adventist Dissident · Sunday at 6:44 AM

Xeno.of.athens said:
But with independent evangelical churches theology is sometimes the personal interpretations of the pastor or of a group of elders and that kind of theology has had insufficient time to develop depth and scope.

can you give an example of church theology that is personal interpretation of a pastor or group elder?

Is the Rapture credible?

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