No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

A New Dawn said:

There were always some along the way that followed the teachings of the prophets and such (hence the famed hall of faith), but the fallen nature of man, in general, prevents men from seeking and understanding God (Romans 3).

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Then what do you make of this verse...

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Why are you cherry picking scripture by drawing conclusions from what you read in Romans 3 without making an effort to find out how to reconcile your understanding of Romans 3 with verses like Hebrews 11:6? If what you said was true then it could not be true that God rewards "those who diligently seek Him".

So, instead of just scratching the surface of scripture and only looking at your cherry picked scriptures, you need to look at all of scripture and dig deeper. What does it mean when it says none seek God in one verse and that God rewards those who diligently seek Him in another? Is that a contradiction? Of course not. We all know there are no contradictions in scripture. So, what do we do then? Just draw conclusions from one of these verses while ignoring the other? No, that is not acceptable.

The sense in which none seek God is that none naturally seek God without any intervention from God of any kind. As Paul said in Romans 10:17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". So, faith and seeking God don't just happen, but rather happen by hearing the word of God.

So, without the word of God, which contains the truth about God, no one will seek God. But, once someone hears and becomes aware of the word of God, then they must choose whether to seek God by looking further into the word of God or to reject God and suppress the truth found in His word. He rewards those who choose to diligently seek Him after hearing or becoming aware of His word. As Paul said in Romans 1:18-21, God's wrath is on those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and they have no excuse for doing that. If what you said was true, then man would have an excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not seeking God. His excuse would be that he just naturally suppresses the truth and does not seek God and can't help but to do so. But, there is no excuse because every person is capable of choosing to either respond favorably after hearing the word of God while seeking to learn more or to suppress the truth that they hear.

Brightfame52 said:

Man cannot by His own freewill come to Jesus Christ or believe on Him for Salvation. Its all of God to cause the man or women to believe in Christ Jn 6:44. God must draw the person, or cause the person to believe in Christ, for its written Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

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That is talking about being given the opportunity to believe in Christ and have the privilege of suffering for His sake. That is not talking about God giving people faith and making people suffer for Christ's sake, which would basically be a case of God forcing people to believe and to suffer for Christ's sake, which He does not do.

Tell me, if God gives people faith then why was Jesus, who is God, so amazed at the great faith of the Roman centurion who trusted in Him to heal his servant?

Matthew 8:5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.” 7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

If God gave people faith, then Jesus certainly would not have been amazed at the faith that He gave to the centurion. Yet, He was amazed by it and said He hadn't "found such great faith, not even in Israel!". The only explanation for that is that people are able to choose to believe or not without that being determined by God.

Brightfame52 said:

Thats part of the drawing, to be given to believe on Him. Its given not on behalf of mans freewill, but on behalf of Christ. Also in the drawing, the causing to believe in Christ certain spiritual blessings are given #1 Spiritual eyes will be open to see Christ spiritually Jn 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

#2 Will be given spiritual ears to hear His voice. Men naturally are spiritually dead and deaf and cannot hear with understanding Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

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Those who He said could not hear His word closed their own eyes and plugged their own ears.

Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’

It isn't that Jesus didn't want them to hear His word. They couldn't because they plugged their own ears and closed their own eyes to the truth.

Brightfame52 said:

In believing in Christ via the Gospel it requires some spiritual understanding Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Naturally man doesnt have this understanding Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

And this word understandeth is the same greek word for understand in Mat 13:23. Now in drawing to Christ its given to see Him Spiritually and hear Him spiritually with spiritual understanding. 14

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I'll say the same to you that I said to "A New Dawn" about this.

If you claim that none who ever understand and seek God then what do you make of this verse...

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Why are you cherry picking scripture by drawing conclusions from what you read in Romans 3 without making an effort to find out how to reconcile your understanding of Romans 3 with verses like Hebrews 11:6? If what you said was true then it could not be true that God rewards "those who diligently seek Him".

So, instead of just scratching the surface of scripture and only looking at your cherry picked scriptures, you need to look at all of scripture and dig deeper. What does it mean when it says none seek God in one verse and that God rewards those who diligently seek Him in another? Is that a contradiction? Of course not. We all know there are no contradictions in scripture. So, what do we do then? Just draw conclusions from one of these verses while ignoring the other? No, that is not acceptable.

The sense in which none seek God is that none naturally seek God without any intervention from God of any kind. As Paul said in Romans 10:17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". So, faith and seeking God don't just happen, but rather happen by hearing the word of God.

So, without the word of God, which contains the truth about God, no one will seek God. But, once someone hears and becomes aware of the word of God, then they must choose whether to seek God by looking further into the word of God or to reject God and suppress the truth found in His word. He rewards those who choose to diligently seek Him after hearing or becoming aware of His word. As Paul said in Romans 1:18-21, God's wrath is on those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and they have no excuse for doing that. If what you said was true, then man would have an excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not seeking God. His excuse would be that he just naturally suppresses the truth and does not seek God and can't help but to do so. But, there is no excuse because every person is capable of choosing to either respond favorably after hearing the word of God while seeking to learn more or to suppress the truth that they hear.

The whole question about free-will and predestination has little practical implication on how we live and serve Christ. The problem with free-will is pride in taking credit for one’s choices. The problem with predestination is diminished responsibility. Both are true and can be supported with Scripture, but our little minds can’t figure out how it works. This drives us back to living our lives according to the leading of the Holy Spirit and Scripture with a good dash of common sense. If only free-will is true, we can earn our salvation, which is false. If predestination is only true, why should we evangelize? There is also the problem of thinking that God can’t handle the millions of decisions we make and still bring us to where He wants us to be. He allows us to make decisions while still leading us in the direction He wants, even if those decisions are sometime against His will. King David is a good example.

Brightfame52 said:

@Spiritual Jew



Yes it does. Man by nature in the matter of Salvation is dead !

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So, why did Jesus say that sinners are sick then? Do you just ignore that because of your cherry picking approach to scripture?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Jerry N. said:

The whole question about free-will and predestination has little practical implication on how we live and serve Christ. The problem with free-will is pride in taking credit for one’s choices.

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That's a false representation of how many people, like me, understand free will. In my view free will gives people the choice to either humble themselves and repent of their sins by admitting that they are lost sinners who can't save themselves and atone for their own sins or to exalt themselves by thinking they are better than others and have no sins that they need to repent of. Like Jesus talked about in the parable of the tax collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14. So, my view of free will has nothing to do with someone taking credit for one's choices, but rather has to do with choosing whether or not to give Jesus all of the credit because of His sacrifice.

Jerry N. said:

The problem with predestination is diminished responsibility. Both are true and can be supported with Scripture, but our little minds can’t figure out how it works.

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We can figure out how it works because it's explained in scripture. If you look closely enough at the scriptures and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide your understanding, then you can figure out how it works.

Jerry N. said:

This drives us back to living our lives according to the leading of the Holy Spirit and Scripture with a good dash of common sense. If only free-will is true, we can earn our salvation, which is false.

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That is a false claim. That is based on one understanding of free will that has something to do with people trying to earn salvation, but my view of free will is people choosing whether they can earn their own salvation or admit that they can't and need Jesus to save them instead.

Brightfame52 said:

@Spiritual Jew



False, thats your false spin on it

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Says the expert on falsely spinning scripture. Such as how you turn "all people" into "the elect" when scripture says God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), that He wants all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and that He graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11).

Brightfame52 said:

Because they sick, duh. Scripture said sinners are dead as well

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Yet another childish response from you.

Why are you not willing to even think about the difference between someone being dead in sins and being spiritually sick? Why would you draw conclusions about what it means for someone to be dead in sins without taking into consideration that they are also sick in another sense?

Do you understand that death is separation such as when people physically die their soul and spirit separates from their body? Being dead in sins means your sins separate you from a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with what someone is capable of doing. Being spiritually sick, as Jesus described sinners, does not makes someone incapable of repenting and believing. A sick person is capable of recognizing and acknowledging that they are sick and can't heal themselves and need the physician to heal them instead.

Spiritual Jew said:

Then what do you make of this verse...

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Why are you cherry picking scripture by drawing conclusions from what you read in Romans 3 without making an effort to find out how to reconcile your understanding of Romans 3 with verses like Hebrews 11:6? If what you said was true then it could not be true that God rewards "those who diligently seek Him".

So, instead of just scratching the surface of scripture and only looking at your cherry picked scriptures, you need to look at all of scripture and dig deeper. What does it mean when it says none seek God in one verse and that God rewards those who diligently seek Him in another? Is that a contradiction? Of course not. We all know there are no contradictions in scripture. So, what do we do then? Just draw conclusions from one of these verses while ignoring the other? No, that is not acceptable.

The sense in which none seek God is that none naturally seek God without any intervention from God of any kind. As Paul said in Romans 10:17, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". So, faith and seeking God don't just happen, but rather happen by hearing the word of God.

So, without the word of God, which contains the truth about God, no one will seek God. But, once someone hears and becomes aware of the word of God, then they must choose whether to seek God by looking further into the word of God or to reject God and suppress the truth found in His word. He rewards those who choose to diligently seek Him after hearing or becoming aware of His word. As Paul said in Romans 1:18-21, God's wrath is on those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and they have no excuse for doing that. If what you said was true, then man would have an excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not seeking God. His excuse would be that he just naturally suppresses the truth and does not seek God and can't help but to do so. But, there is no excuse because every person is capable of choosing to either respond favorably after hearing the word of God while seeking to learn more or to suppress the truth that they hear.

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It’s true that God uses the foolishness of preaching to save, but there is still nothing that says just anyone can respond without God making the first move. Christ taught the gospel every day of His ministry, and still men turned away. What was it he said about why they didn’t respond? “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” That is what God does, he gives us ears to hear so that we can respond. We can’t choose to hear.

Spiritual Jew said:

Yet another childish response from you.

Why are you not willing to even think about the difference between someone being dead in sins and being spiritually sick? Why would you draw conclusions about what it means for someone to be dead in sins without taking into consideration that they are also sick in another sense?

Do you understand that death is separation such as when people physically die their soul and spirit separates from their body? Being dead in sins means your sins separate you from a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with what someone is capable of doing. Being spiritually sick, as Jesus described sinners, does not makes someone incapable of repenting and believing. A sick person is capable of recognizing and acknowledging that they are sick and can't heal themselves and need the physician to heal them instead.

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But the person dead in trespasses and sins is elsewhere described by Paul as "the natural man," about whom he wrote:

“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:14 NKJV)

That surely speaks of inability. He does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, and he cannot know them.

Brightfame52 said:

That word know is ginōskō :

1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
   1. to become known
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
   1. to understand

The natural man has no ability spiritually to all of the above of Spiritual things proceeding from the Spirit of God. And the Gospel proceeds from the Spirit of God.

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Exactly, I agree.