No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Brightfame52 said:

@Spiritual Jew



You wrong, it was Gods will for Pharoah to disobey His command to let His people go. Im not even arguing about that, its so plain in the Ex narrative.

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I wrong? LOL. It wasn't God's will for Pharaoh to be a wicked person with a hardened heart in the first place. There is nothing written to indicate that. It was God's will to use Pharaoh as an example and to show His power through him. God knew Pharaoh would disobey Him because He knew Pharaoh had a hardened heart. Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart before any of that took place.

Brightfame52 said:

Is hating people wrong morally ?

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Yes, of course it is. Jesus taught us to even love our enemies (Matthew 5:44).

Brightfame52 said:

Was it Gods will for the egyptians to hate the israelites here Ps 105:25

He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

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You are not understanding what this verse means. Why would you interpret this verse in such a way that contradicts Jesus telling us to love our enemies? Do you not care if you interpret one verse in a way that contradicts other verses? What this verse means is that God used the general wickedness and hate that the Egyptian people already had against His people because His plan was to show His people how He could deliver them from even the most dire circumstances. It wasn't as if God had to completely change who the Egyptians were in order for them to treat God's people harshly. It was normal for them to mistreat other people, but God used that for His purposes.

Another example of that would be how God used the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem and kill many of its people in 70 AD. The Romans were mostly wicked people, but God used them to punish the Jews. God can do things like that if He wants, but that has nothing to do with whether or not people have free will to choose whether to repent and believe the gospel.

Brightfame52 said:

What we as natural men dont comprehend is that by nature we are dead to God, in such a condition we are without any hope in and of ourselves, like these gentiles Eph 2:12

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

This means nothing can possibly done by man to change his plight, he can not do anything spiritually good towards salvation. Without spiritual life its a dead end. By nature we cant even think a spiritual thought 2 Cor 3:5

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Jesus even told His disciples in regards to spiritual matters Jn 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So what about a person dead in sin ? How can they come to Christ, a spiritual act, by their own freewill in the flesh ? 14

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You just don't get it. How you are interpreting John 15:5 illustrates your lack of discernment about these things. Jesus was not talking about repentance and faith in John 15:5. He was talking about those who belonged to Him and that if they abided/remained in Him then they would bring forth much fruit. So, He was telling them that they could do nothing without Him in relation to bearing fruit, which has to do with doing good works after we're saved and are in Him (belong to Him). He's saying we can't do the good works God has for us to do AFTER we become saved without Him helping us. He was not saying those who are dead in sin, which means they are separated from God, but spiritually sick (Mark 2:16-17), are not able to come to Christ with repentance and faith. You are taking all of these scriptures out of context because of your doctrinal bias. You continually show how you don't know the difference between repentance/faith and good works. Scripture differentiates between them.

A New Dawn said:

ALL people have a long history of rebelling against God.

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The Berean Jews didn't have a long history of rebellion against God. Luke says that they were of more noble character in contrast to their counterparts from Thessalonica.

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men." Acts 17

When you parse the Greek you will find that it says that they were "born" of more noble character meaning that they were brought up from birth to seek God and to search the scriptures.

Brightfame52 said:

It doesnt matter ethnicity, all are sinners by nature. He may have been talking to jews, but all humans are sinners like them by nature.

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But it does matter historically. The Jews had a long history of rebellion against God and they had become calloused. But that wasn't the situation with the Gentiles. Jesus said that the Ninevites will stand in judgment against the Jews because they repented without the testimony of miracles. He said that many Gentiles would come from the East and the West to sit at the banquet table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the Jews would be "thrust out." Jesus marveled at the faith of the Roman centurion saying, "I have not seen such great faith in Israel." The centurion heard about Christ's miracles and believed in him. But the Jews who witnessed his miracles could not believe because they had grown so calloused.

Brightfame52 said:

What we as natural men dont comprehend is that by nature we are dead to God, in such a condition we are without any hope in and of ourselves, like these gentiles Eph 2:12

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The natural man in 1 Corinthians 2 refers exclusively to the Jewish rulers who crucified Christ (verse 8). Note that Paul said only that they didn't understand.

8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul didn't say that none of the common people understood it. Calvinism has no case.

Jack Terrence said:

The natural man in 1 Corinthians 2 refers exclusively to the Jewish rulers who crucified Christ (verse 8). Note that Paul said only that they didn't understand.

8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Paul didn't say that none of the common people understood it. Calvinism has no case.

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Certainly in the earlier part of the chapter he mentioned the Jewish leaders who arranged Christ's crucifixion, but when he later talks of the natural; man, the context shows that he is not thinking only of those Jewish leaders:

“12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:12-14 NKJV)

Surely "the spirit of the world" was not only evident in the actions of the Jewish leaders, but in all who do not know the Saviour.

Jack Terrence said:

The Berean Jews didn't have a long history of rebellion against God. Luke says that they were of more noble character in contrast to their counterparts from Thessalonica.

"Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men." Acts 17

When you parse the Greek you will find that it says that they were "born" of more noble character meaning that they were brought up from birth to seek God and to search the scriptures.

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There were always some along the way that followed the teachings of the prophets and such (hence the famed hall of faith), but the fallen nature of man, in general, prevents men from seeking and understanding God (Romans 3).

Brightfame52 said:

@Spiritual Jew

No its not, its truth

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So, since you think babies are guilty of sin (LOL!), do you believe babies go to hell if they die?

David Lamb said:

Certainly in the earlier part of the chapter he mentioned the Jewish leaders who arranged Christ's crucifixion, but when he later talks of the natural; man, the context shows that he is not thinking only of those Jewish leaders:

“12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Co 2:12-14 NKJV)

Surely "the spirit of the world" was not only evident in the actions of the Jewish leaders, but in all who do not know the Saviour.

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It's not talking only about the Jewish leaders, but the context of 1 Corinthians 12:14 is in relation to the deep things of God, which Paul refers to as "meat" or "solid food" and contrasts with "milk" in 1 Corinthians 3:2. This passage cannot be used to support Calvinism.

By looking also at verses 10 and 11 you can see the full context of what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is not talking about the natural man not being able to understand the "milk" of God's word that even the carnal "babes in Christ" could understand, but rather the "solid food" of God's word that only mature believers can understand and that not only unbelievers can't understand but any "babes in Christ" who are acting carnally also can't discern. That passage has nothing to do with unsaved people not being able to understand the gospel and respond to it favorably without God basically forcing people to do so by giving them faith and repentance, as Calvinists believe.

Brightfame52 said:

Its plain that it was Gods will for Pharoah to disobey

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No, God knew that he would disobey and purposely used that knowledge to show His power through what He did to Pharaoh and the Egyptians. Big difference. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God ever did, but you ignore that.

Brightfame52 said:

Obviously you havent a clue

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You have utterly failed to refute my arguments, so it is clearly you who has no clue.

Brightfame52 said:

Man is dead in sin by nature, spiritually dead

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Dead in sin does not mean spiritually dead in the way you think. It means to be separated from God, not to be unable to repent and believe. Death is separation. When a person physically dies their soul and spirit separates from their body. They don't completely lose consciousness. You only scratch the surface of scripture without making the effort to dig deeper to find the truth. You ignore that Jesus said that sinners are spiritually sick. You cherry pick certain scriptures that you take out of context while ignoring the scriptures that your interpretations of the cherry picked scripture contradict.

Mark 2:14 As He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, “Follow Me.” So he arose and followed Him. 15 Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Jesus indicated that the righteous are "those who are well" and sinners are "those who are sick". So, He indicated that He did not come to call those who are well (the righteous), but those who are sick (sinners) to repentance. How do you reconcile your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins with what it means to be sick and called to repentance? Sick people are able to recognize and admit they are sick and can't heal themselves and they need a physician to heal them. Likewise, sinners are able to recognize and admit that they are lost sinners and can't save themselves and atone for their own sins, and they need Jesus to save them and forgive their sins.

Also, when Jesus said that He came to call sinners to repentance He didn't say that He came only to call some sinners or certain sinners to repentance. All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so Jesus came to call all people to repentance. That contradicts your belief that God only gives repentance to some while the rest are unable to repent.