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Does Christianity ever align with the fiscal and economic interests of the United States?

linux.poet

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I have always considered the latter, perhaps biased by my innate hatred of the U.S. public school system, to be a "pattern of this world" that other Christians are to avoid conforming to.

However, perhaps given that the latter is interested in keeping Christians alive, along with everyone else, perhaps there is some alignment here. Thoughts?
 

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I have always considered the latter, perhaps biased by my innate hatred of the U.S. public school system, to be a "pattern of this world" that other Christians are to avoid conforming to.

However, perhaps given that the latter is interested in keeping Christians alive, along with everyone else, perhaps there is some alignment here. Thoughts?
That there are so many poor and homeless, I'd say that Christianity does not align with much of it
 
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Fantine

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The religious right is the branch of Christianity most interested in turning public schools with children of every faith and ethnicity into "Christian schools" and is the branch of Christianity that is most at odds with what Christianity should be all about--the Gospel message of Jesus.
 
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Richard T

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I have always considered the latter, perhaps biased by my innate hatred of the U.S. public school system, to be a "pattern of this world" that other Christians are to avoid conforming to.

However, perhaps given that the latter is interested in keeping Christians alive, along with everyone else, perhaps there is some alignment here. Thoughts?
Many have tried to make it align. The so called separation of church and state though as handed down from the judicial branch over time has limited the role of religion in schools and in government. In some ways this is OK, because you would not want the state to compel any religion that some would believe as false. On the other hand the state has promoted the "religion of no religion," in many cases.
Some do think through on public policies and try to make it as Christian as possible. Others simply use Christianity to try to influence Christisnas with very little actual attempt the change it.
The Trump administration deserves some credit for certain areas. More alignment with Israel, and more real anti-abortion concerns than previous administrations. However, some of Trump's Christian partners have some issues in other things they are trying to accomplish. The rush to cut taxes on the most wealthy at the expense of the poor are one problematic policy as was alluded to by yarddog in the previous reply.

Christianity though has never really had a consensus on immigration, public debts, or even the type of economic system that is best. Some theologians write about various policy matters but few are proficient in how to make policy reforms that can align with the bible in actual practice. I think this will expand as more Christians take their faith and begin to study and understand the fields (most social sciences) that can help them get a fields such as economics, politics, education, criminal justice and all other areas that sorely need help.

Americans too need to look at how political parties, corruption, conflict of interests, and large corporate interests control government to some extent and the detriment to most everyday Americans. America is not immune from this, though it is far from the worst.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I have always considered the latter, perhaps biased by my innate hatred of the U.S. public school system, to be a "pattern of this world" that other Christians are to avoid conforming to.

However, perhaps given that the latter is interested in keeping Christians alive, along with everyone else, perhaps there is some alignment here. Thoughts?

While I don't harbor any hatred for the many experiences I've had from within the U.S. public school system, if there's a historical answer to your OP question, I'm going to say that I don't generally think the economic interests of our own dearly beloved nation align very closely with the Christian Faith.

.......... of course, by my interpretation of Christianity, I don't really expect those economic interests to align as such, although I readily confess I wish they did or would soon do so.
 
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Vambram

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The religious right is the branch of Christianity most interested in turning public schools with children of every faith and ethnicity into "Christian schools" and is the branch of Christianity that is most at odds with what Christianity should be all about--the Gospel message of Jesus.
I believe that every sentence in this post describing "the religious right" tells me that you really don't understand the "religious right" at all.
 
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chevyontheriver

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While I don't harbor any hatred for the many experiences I've had from within the U.S. public school system, if there's a historical answer to your OP question, I'm going to say that I don't generally think the economic interests of our own dearly beloved nation align very closely with the Christian Faith.

.......... of course, by my interpretation of Christianity, I don't really expect those economic interests to align as such, although I readily confess I wish they did or would soon do so.
I’d say it is theoretically possible for an alignment to happen from time to time accidentally or even on purpose. Our country occasionally follows just war theory, occasionally treats the poor well, and occasionally does justice. We ought to encourage that as we can.
 
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Tuur

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I have always considered the latter, perhaps biased by my innate hatred of the U.S. public school system, to be a "pattern of this world" that other Christians are to avoid conforming to.

However, perhaps given that the latter is interested in keeping Christians alive, along with everyone else, perhaps there is some alignment here. Thoughts?
I think the question is whether any fiscal or economic policy aligns with Christianity, not the other way around. Other than that, I think we're amiss trying to claim this or that economic policy is "Christian." Christians who are socialist will argue for socialism; Christians who are capitalist will argue for capitalism, and so forth and so on. I really think such things are basically neutral, the problem arising from the wickedness of the human heart regardless of economic theory. Thus we have things like embezzlement and cheating customers and workers, and socialists who preach equality and yet have dachas that the masses cannot afford.
 
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Fantine

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I believe that every sentence in this post describing "the religious right" tells me that you really don't understand the "religious right" at all.
I am a "thou shalt" Christian. Love God, love your neighbor, practice kindness and compassion.

In my opinion, based on my experience and my knowledge of the well-funded, all encompassing political agenda of the religious right:

The religious right is far more interested in "thou shalt not" religion. They are especially interested in telling people other than themselves what they shouldn't be doing, and controlling their decisions by force. If they help people through their churches, they are usually trying to save them. I read an evangelical article once advising missionaries in India to spend their money on schools, not the sick or the poor. After all, their main goal was saving people and the sick and poor gave them less bang for the buck. I also heard a young man I knew give a talk once about his mission trip to Haiti after a climactic disaster. He said they spent one day cleaning a beach and the rest of the time they visited children's schools, colorin and doing crafts with them and "telling them about Jesus."
"Do you know that Haiti is 80% Catholic?" I asked him. "They didn't need 'saving,' they needed clean water, food, flood cleanups."
What did the kids on that mission trip learn? I have no idea. When I went to Central America I couldn't in conscience have wasted their time and mine without giving them the help they needed.
A man I know (mainstream Protestant) knows how to be a missionary. He is very active in a ministry called Solar Under the Sun, and when he goes to Haiti he installs simple wiring and small solar panels allowing impoverished people to operate small power tools and sewing machines to help them support themselves and give their children a little light at night to study. He does what St. Francis recommends--preaching the Gospel only using words when necessary.
If the religious right was "right" they wouldn't support 99% of what our government has done since January 20--but they were influential in causing it.
 
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Vambram

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I am a "thou shalt" Christian. Love God, love your neighbor, practice kindness and compassion.
The religious right is far more interested in "thou shalt not" religion. They are especially interested in telling people other than themselves what they shouldn't be doing, and controlling their decisions by force. If they help people through their churches, they are usually trying to "save" them. I read an evangelical article once advising missionaries in India to spend their money on schools, not the sick or the poor. After all, their main goal was saving people and the sick and poor gave them less bang for the buck. I also heard a young man I knew give a talk once about his mission trip to Haiti after a climactic disaster. He said they spent one day cleaning a beach and the rest of the time they visited children's schools, colorin and doing crafts with them and "telling them about Jesus."
"Do you know that Haiti is 80% Catholic?" I asked him. "They didn't need 'saving,' they needed clean water, food, flood cleanups."
What did the kids on that mission trip learn? I have no idea. When I went to Central America I couldn't in conscience have wasted their time and mine without giving them the help they needed.
A man I know (mainstream Protestant) knows how to be a missionary. He is very active in a ministry called Solar Under the Sun, and when he goes to Haiti he installs simple wiring and small solar panels allowing impoverished people to operate small power tools and sewing machines to help them support themselves and give their children a little light at night to study. He does what St. Francis recommends--preaching the Gospel only using words when necessary.
If the religious right was "right" they wouldn't support 99% of what our government has done since January 20--but they were influential in causing it.
I was correct with my assessment. Unfortunately, you appear to really NOT understand at all the religious right. Your characterization of them are incorrect.
 
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Fantine

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I was correct with my assessment. Unfortunately, you appear to really NOT understand at all the religious right. Your characterization of them are incorrect.

As I said, it's based on my lived experience---living surrounded by the religious right at every turn.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The religious right is the branch of Christianity most interested in turning public schools with children of every faith and ethnicity into "Christian schools" and is the branch of Christianity that is most at odds with what Christianity should be all about--the Gospel message of Jesus.
Why must education be primarily secular Fantine and devoid of God and Christian influence? Education for most of Christian history has never denied teaching of the divine, the bible, doctrine, theology, all of these have been part of a decent Christian curriculum since the beginning.

Given the results of secular education, the de-Christianization of entire generations in line with an ideology of secular liberalism, why should Christians disarm themselves in the realm of education? Why should we let people like yourself who dislike Christianity in public schooling dominate that arena?

Do you dislike the idea of influencing children towards Christianity via education? Why?
 
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linux.poet

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The religious right is the branch of Christianity most interested in turning public schools with children of every faith and ethnicity into "Christian schools" and is the branch of Christianity that is most at odds with what Christianity should be all about--the Gospel message of Jesus.
How is preaching the Gospel to children at odds with the Gospel message of Jesus?

Having the Gospel at a young age can save children a lot of misery and bad choices. The Holy Spirit has more time to work on them before the burdens of full adult responsibilities hit.

I'm sorry, but I didn't really intend this thread to be about the difference between Christian and public schools. While I used my time in public school to evangelize and present the Gospel to many of my fellow students and teachers, I still needed to receive a proper Christian education. I was fortunate enough to attend a Bible-teaching church and an AWANA ministry which took the spiritual education of children seriously. They had elders and pastors of the church teach us. During my first two years in high school, an elder of the church met with all of the AWANA high school students for a separate meeting on Monday afternoons to discuss deeper theological facts and principles. He was taking us through a systematic theology and timelines for lives of early biblical characters. Unfortunately, I had to move away, but I still have my notes from that experience. It's something I'm never ever going to forget.

One can argue that care for the poor is important, but there is an intellectual depth and focus to Christianity that cannot be denied. Should we address practical problems? YES.

James 2:15-16 said:
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

As James points out, faith without works is dead. (James 2:17) But without a Christian intellectual education, I wouldn't be able to pull out that verse and tell you that. I wouldn't be able to defend your ministry from those who would attack it and say that it is a waste of time. That is the point of the intellect, to go back to the Hebrew and the Greek. It is a defense. Children should defend their faith from those (in public school and otherwise) who would attack it.

But besides all of that, it's the treasures of wisdom and knowledge that are to be found in Christ, walking deeper and deeper into the knowledge of God. It's deeper enjoyment of who God is that allows us to resist worldly temptations and pleasures. It's more protection on that level, but it is also deeply valuable.

And some believe that this Christian education needs to be integrated into the study of reading, writing, mathematics, science, and history. Christianity was kind of the source of widespread literacy in the first place, as without it people could not read their Bibles in any language, let alone their own. Which goes against Catholic history, the denomination that has historically conducted services in Latin and has fought to keep Scripture out of the hands of the laity. Which turns this whole thing into a Catholic versus Protestant issue. The Protestant approach is blatant: if you don't explain the Gospel, Scripture, and theology to people, they won't accept it. Which leads the Protestants to believe that many Catholics don't even know what the Gospel even is, let alone have the chance to accept it. I'm not saying that this thought process is correct, but once you get people telling you this, I'll admit that this mindset is hard to shake, especially if you've never been to a Catholic mass ever (that would be me, lowly uncultured human that I am). And yes, I know that the Masses are said in English these days.

Anyway, Protestantism is kind of responsible for the subject education in the first place and so they want to hang onto it through the education system of the Christian school. After all, we have to manage church budgets with math and keep people alive with science and tell the history of America to defend our democratic system and protect our religious freedoms by getting our children to vote properly.

But then the government co-opted the system to produce obedient factory workers. Conformists. Obedient children. This enrages the artists, the designers, the creatives, the writers and poets. It's easy for a government to subdue an obedient and conformist population rather than a nation of individual freethinkers. When government takes over education, the result is obvious. It has nothing to do with religion, and the Protestants are just irritated that their system of training missionaries got co-opted and is being used how it wasn't intended.

One of the advantages of Christian school is actually that you learn to pursue the economics interests of Christianity, rather than the economic interests of the state. This lack of integrated knowledge has actually caused me difficulties as an adult because I want to serve the Lord. I would argue that there is some value to it. On the other hand, you can argue that an integrated "Christian school" education isolates children from the reality of the world outside, and that creates spiritually weak people who cannot stand up to the harsh realities of the world. A cloistered child might decide to walk away from Christianity because they feel betrayed over information that was hidden from them. The advantage of my upbringing is that I knew what I was being saved from and had the luxury of choosing truth. My vision is clear.

Anyway, that was too long. The point of this thread wasn't to critique various types of denominational education systems, it was to ask whether Christian economic interests ever align with the U.S. economic ones. I'd appreciate it if we could try to get back on topic, though I do concede that the lens of education is a compelling way to examine this problem that I didn't consider.

(What are Christian economic interests, anyway? Serving the poor is one, but there may be others my mind may be blanking on.)

What I was thinking more about was, when you're poor, cash becomes a resource, not an implicit need-to-have transaction mechanism. You can have EBT, cash, gift cards, or even things like clothing, shoes, furniture, etc that you get from OfferUp or various donation sources. If you're in that situation long enough, you start to notice where you get cash from as opposed to other things. All cash sources involve selling your time and/or conforming to a standard or system. Working a government job, getting government financial aid to go to college, EBT that's measured in dollar amounts - all the purest forms of this. You need cash to pay for government services like vehicle registrations and vehicle insurance, buying from the government the privilege of driving your car on a public street. You use cash to pay for property taxes, which is the privilege of owning land in the United States that the government has to secure from terrorist invasions and supply roads and the same public school system to teach kids to conform and be good little citizens of the USA all over again.

Eventually, you start to notice what the system is all about. The corporations all provide services to United States' citizens. They do it by making their workers conform to their vision. Cash is all about the Government, and the U.S. Government's better interest. Placing money in the hands of companies in the form of stocks makes you more money (potentially) because you are putting your money back into the system. The cash system, under fiat currency, is not about collective human economic survival. It's about the interest of government. Those who do not conform or obey, who want to stand up with their own individual voice, economically suffer until they give up the goal and find a YouTube algorithm to conform to in the interest of Uncle Sam.

Which brings me back to my title question.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Are we encouraged as Christians to get into debt that we will never pay and to fob it off to the next generation? As pretty much all modern democratic governments do? Or are we encouraged to be wise and responsible and live within our means? The Gospel doesn't really provide us with economic advice or what is the best policy but I find it hard to align what modern governments do in their spending with anything encouraged in the Gospels.
 
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linux.poet

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Are we encouraged as Christians to get into debt that we will never pay and to fob it off to the next generation? As pretty much all modern democratic governments do? Or are we encouraged to be wise and responsible and live within our means?
Proverbs 22:7 said:
The rich rules over the poor,
And the borrower is servant to the lender.

Deuteronomy 15:6 said:
For the Lord your God will bless you just as He promised you; you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you.

This is instruction for Israel.

Deuteronomy 28:12 said:
The Lord will open to you His good treasure, the heavens, to give the rain to your land in its season, and to bless all the work of your hand. You shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow.

The last one is a blessing that were promised to the nation of Israel for obedience.

Deuteronomy 28:43-44 said:
43 “The alien who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. 44 He shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him; he shall be the head, and you shall be the tail.

That is a curse for disobedience to God.

So, if the nation of Israel and the Proverbs of the wisest man to ever live are valid Biblical models, that's a no, don't run a nation like that.

We're supposed to live within our means and trust God's provision.
 
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Fantine

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In Acts the early Christians shared what they had with one another. People who hid their treasure from the community were struck dead. (One could draw a contemporary analogy of businessmen who committed tax fraud for decades and were eventually brought to justice.) During the later Middle Ages a merchant class brought widespread prosperity.
 
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Vambram

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As I said, it's based on my lived experience---living surrounded by the religious right at every turn.
Well, then your experiences directly contradicts my own experiences.
 
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