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How should have Christians historically addressed Islam?
- Thread starter Ignatius the Kiwi
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No there is a difference. There is difference between saying that God won't allow someone to experience pain that might lead them astray and that God won't let his faithful experience any pain.
So true faith did die when the Apostles died? You're saying this special faith was only around during the time the New Testament was written?
It is not evil to defend someone in need.
You also acknowledge in this that anyone experiencing this should allow it to happen. That rape and murder must be allowed to go on without resistance. If for instance you were about to be murdered no one should stop it.
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Hoping2
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Then you are misunderstanding one post or the other.
What are you talking about ?
Men have only been allowed to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh since Christ rose from the grave.
What does 'special faith' have to do with my response or your question ?
It was about walking in the Spirit !
Instead of worrying about what you will do when it happens, why not ask God to just keep it from happening ?
You are tending the barn-door, after the horses have left !
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No I'm not. You're just incoherent.
Well no. Only the Apostles did this, then 1900 years later there was you. There has been no one else who has walked this path of yours.
I'm saying that your words indicate that only during the New Testament people actually lived this faith. And you. Because you are special.
Because these things do happen and you have no response to them other than to let them happen. You don't think faithful people have been murdered or raped before? Or do you think someone who is murdered or raped wasn't a genuine Christian?
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Hoping2
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I disagree.
Even the apostles couldn't do it until they received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
No man could crucify their "flesh" until Jesus was crucified.
After which, men could be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Living with faith is a far cry from walking in the Spirit.
My response has consistently been that we should pray that they don't happen.
I believe prayer matters.
I know faithful NT people have been murdered.
The ones I am aware of, brought God much glory by their deaths.
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And no one else has since the Apostles except for you.
And yet it does happen even to people who pray. My response to this is that you desire it to happen more than you desire to stop it. That is if prayer does not stop a rapist it is preferable for the rapist to rape than be stopped via force.
Its an evil doctrine and position that only Satan could endorse.
Given your previous words those who were murdered lacked faith and deserved to die this is a contradiction and you appeal to two sides of this argument when you think you run into trouble. When it is pointed out that men and women have died you say it has brought forth glory for God. Then when you are asked what you would do in a situation in which a person is being murdered or raped you say God will never allow that to happen to you, despite acknowledging it can happen.
The ultimate problem is that you are ashamed of your beliefs and you cannot admit to the consequences of them. If you believe God himself will directly address all evil and that people are forbidden to do so, instead of the traditional view that we can be instruments of God especially when we do good for the defense of someone, then stick to it. Follow the consequences of this monstrous and murderous ideology fears a Christians raising their hand against someone who deserves it more than evil people doing things like murder or rape.
Tell the woman who is being raped, you need to be raped because God will be glorified through this and I am not allowed to intervene and stop it from happening. I have the power to, I could bash the man over the head with a rock and save you, but I won't because God wants to be glorified and he demands this happen to you. It is also potentially happening to you because you lacked faith and you deserve it.
This in the end is your ideology and viewpoint hoping and i think it's disgusting.
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Hoping2
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Thank God, you are wrong about that.
As faith come by hearing, don't you think it was faithful people who have continued to present the gospel, since the apostles ?
To the glory of God, I'm sure !
Not at all.
Your scenario sure would be.
But your opinion does not reflect my posts.
You will need to provide the post # where I said that...or recant.
I disagree with your citing of me.
The only faithful folks I know of that have been murdered, besides the apostles themselves, were Stephen and Antipas.
All of those deaths glorified God.
Only your view on them seems to be a problem.
Thank you.
Your scenario is one without faith in God's protection.
I don't know of any Christian women ever having been raped.
Your scenarios are without faith.
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That was the modus operandi of Muslims who came into Christian villages in South Sudan, killing and burning houses, but raping the young women and taking them back to Khartoum to be sold as slaves in the slave markets. The same was repeated by ISIS in Iraq. You don't know of any Christian women ever having been raped. Explain that away.
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So we can conclude that any woman in history who was raped was not a true Christian. Even if she believed in God, her being raped is evidence of her not having faith in God? Be her a Nun, a Mother or young woman? This is your position? That God protects women who believe in him from rape?
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You have proof they were not Christians because they were raped?
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Hoping2
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Yes, that is the sort of God I believe in.
He has provided many exhortations on how holy women can keep themselves safe.
I have faith that His teachings accomplish their intended goals.
Don't you believe the obedient won't be let down, in the 'crunch' ?
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I'd compare Hoping to someone like Augustine who actually had to deal with women who had been raped during the sacking of Rome. He offerred consolation and the compassion to said women and told them their purity was still in tact despite the great evil that had been done to them. What would Hoping tell them? "You were raped and therefore are not of God because God would have protected. You being raped is evidence of your sinfulness."
Genuinely psychotic.
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Yes. I believe God allows us to suffer all kinds of iniquities in this life. God does not promise us perfect lives especially when men and women are capable of evil. It is through that suffering and overcoming it that we become stronger in faith, rather than just expecting everything to be done for us or to be protected from every malice.
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