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Hegseth Boosts Video of Pastors Saying Women Shouldn't Vote, Advocating Repeal of 19th Amendment

Oompa Loompa

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That's better. No nonsense about drafts. Just a simple biblical verse that says that your wife should submit to you. Therefore, runs your logic, she doesn't get the vote.
Yes. The wife should submit to their husband AS UNTO THE LORD. Meaning I'm that of a husband says "dont read that book (the Bible)," or "dont go to church." The wife should respectfully say that she will continue doing such thing because they are pleasing to the Lord. Furthermore, submission is not a negative or derogatory thing. After all, Jesus, although ontological equal to the Father, voluntarily submitted to the will of the Father.

Take note that Paul later explains that he is talking about the relationship between Christ and the Church, not about marriage. Therefore, Ephesians 5 is a standard that everyone should strive to achieve, but all fall short somewhere. But in the end, it is the man, the husband, and the father, who will have to stand account on judgement day to answer for all the things done, and things left undone within the marriage - not the wife. After all, who did God call for after the fall? Not Eve, but Adam. Why? Because Adam was ultimate responsible and accountable.

Men's authority over women isn't because they are in any way superior. Because both are ontologically equal in the sense that they are both created in the image of God. But because the man has the added responsibility, they also have the added authority in the same manner that the Father has authority over both the Son and the Holy Spirit although they are ontologically equal. This is why I support what the video says. One vote per household, expecting that the man of the home will be the representing voice for the household.
 
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Bradskii

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Yes. The wife should submit to their husband AS UNTO THE LORD.
Meaning, according to you, that she doesn't get the vote. So what was all that bulldust about the draft? With this new argument it's totally irrelevant. Why waste your time and everyone else's? Why not quote the bible to start with? But hey, using this new 'argument' means that you get to keep your vote! Lucky you!

And what's your daughter going to say when she's 18 and wants to vote? Seems odd that your wife can't but your daughter can.

'No, daddy. Peter wants the marriage to be put back to the middle of November. He says he wants me to have that last opportunity to vote in the presidential election. Isn't he so thoughtful!'

What a guy...

PS. You should note that biblical passages will sometimes be read if they are relevant and relatively short. I don't read them if they are the sole basis for a position. So I didn't read past the sentence quoted above. It saved me time. I'm just mentioning this so it'll save you time next time.
 
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Gene2memE

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The whole draft argument is an irrelevant cul de sac.

Women still have the same rights to enfranchisement as everyone else. They have "skin in the game" purely because they are citizens and the decisions made by elected leaders impact their lives.

These reactionary ding-dongs would be making the same argument whether there was universal conscription or no selective service whatsoever. How do I know this? Because they're Christian Nationalist reactionary ding-dongs and their societal conceptions and notions around equality are derived from theocratic rules drawn up in 5th Century BCE, from a culture where women were effectively property.
 
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Pommer

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IMO, that's a distinction without much difference. Even if one takes the most charitable interpretations of his intents, the reality of an arrangement like this is that women will still be disenfranchised to at least some degree. Ironically, these guys supposedly wanting to decrease the "atomization" of society are actually putting forward an incentive to not get married.
Everybody wants to rule the world as Tears for Fears told us so long ago, and if someone desires to stake out a claim on the “one-household, one-vote” camp, then more power to them (figuratively).
I’m sure that this sentiment goes a long way in Moscow Idaho.
Heck, he might even make a buck on the deal!
 
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Pommer

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Some here apparently don’t believe our rights are endowed to us by a creator. They are granted (by men) and can be withdrawn. I’m not big on the “creator” line but inalienable rights is pretty unambiguous.
DOI not the Constitution.
 
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iluvatar5150

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I think that any Christian who is opposed to the video should carefully read Ephesians 5:21-33. If they are uncomfortable with it, that is an issue between them and God. I see nothing Biblically wrong with the pastor's message in the video.
There's a lot in that video beyond what's prescribed in that passage. In practice, their implementation of that passage also cedes a lot of power or control to the husband in a manner that facilitates abuse.

It's like folks forget that we used to live under a system like that. There was a reason so many people fought to correct it.
 
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Desk trauma

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There's a lot in that video beyond what's prescribed in that passage. In practice, their implementation of that passage also cedes a lot of power or control to the husband in a manner that facilitates abuse.
Feature, not a bug.
 
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BCP1928

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I think that any Christian who is opposed to the video should carefully read Ephesians 5:21-33. If they are uncomfortable with it, that is an issue between them and God. I see nothing Biblically wrong with the pastor's message in the video.
If that passage is the justification for his position then it only applies to Christian women whose husbands can talk them into going along with it. It has nothing to do with the rights and duties of the citizens of a secular state.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think that any Christian who is opposed to the video should carefully read Ephesians 5:21-33. If they are uncomfortable with it, that is an issue between them and God. I see nothing Biblically wrong with the pastor's message in the video.

You think that St. Paul's call for Christians to submit to one another out of love and out of imitation and devotion to Christ means that women shouldn't be enfranchised to vote?

Well, that's weird and makes no sense.

Also, don't blame the Apostle for your chauvinism. Own it, and repent of it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Belk

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Let me draw this out in crayon. When someone turns 18, whether male or female, should have a choice to either register for the draft, or wave their right to vote.
Should this be universal? Should males who are disabled or otherwise unable to serve be denied the right to vote? I'm reminded of Starship Troopers (the book) "Service guarantees citizenship".
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes. The wife should submit to their husband AS UNTO THE LORD. Meaning I'm that of a husband says "dont read that book (the Bible)," or "dont go to church." The wife should respectfully say that she will continue doing such thing because they are pleasing to the Lord. Furthermore, submission is not a negative or derogatory thing. After all, Jesus, although ontological equal to the Father, voluntarily submitted to the will of the Father.

Take note that Paul later explains that he is talking about the relationship between Christ and the Church, not about marriage. Therefore, Ephesians 5 is a standard that everyone should strive to achieve, but all fall short somewhere. But in the end, it is the man, the husband, and the father, who will have to stand account on judgement day to answer for all the things done, and things left undone within the marriage - not the wife. After all, who did God call for after the fall? Not Eve, but Adam. Why? Because Adam was ultimate responsible and accountable.

Men's authority over women isn't because they are in any way superior. Because both are ontologically equal in the sense that they are both created in the image of God. But because the man has the added responsibility, they also have the added authority in the same manner that the Father has authority over both the Son and the Holy Spirit although they are ontologically equal. This is why I support what the video says. One vote per household, expecting that the man of the home will be the representing voice for the household.

It's exhausting how often this passage is used to support chauvinistic, woman-hating positions.

Biblical exegesis in the spoilers, for those who want to read it.

The theme of this whole section in Ephesians is imitation of Christ through love, which includes verse 21 of ch 5
"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ."

The following then reads,
αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ
"wives, to your husbands as to the Lord"

The lack of a verb here is because the verb is "borrowed" from the preceding statement, "submitting to one another".

It doesn't end with what wives ought to do, it then tells husbands how THEY are supposed to submit to their wives. Because the point here is "submitting to one another out of reverence to Christ".

"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,"

What does Paul mean? He means this, "For the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45), or to use Paul's own language from elsewhere,

"Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this same mind in you which was in Christ Jesus. Who, though by nature God, did not regard equality with God something to exploit, but emptied Himself, by taking on the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, humbled Himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:4-8)

Christ came as a servant, serving, offering Himself. He submitted Himself, out of love, to us exchanging His life for ours.
It doesn't end here either. This continues uninterrupted into the next chapter,

"Children, obey your parents" (Ephesians 6:1) but the inverse is also given, "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger"; parental love and responsibility isn't about being "in charge", it's about devoting one's life to serving one's children so that children are raised to healthy adulthood. To be a father or a mother is to be a servant to your children.

And Paul continues:
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters" (Ephesians 6:5)

And still also,
"Masters do the same to them" (Ephesians 6:9)

In Greco-Roman society telling wives to submit to their husbands, children to obey their parents, and slaves to obey their masters is hardly radical nor interesting--that is just how that society functioned at the base level. Those were the ordinary social mores that everyone who lived then and there operated with. The interesting parts are the ways Paul subverts the ordinary social relationships by flipping the script; that there isn't some imposed social structural hierarchy; it's not top to bottom, it's bottom to top. Christ is Lord from the bottom, Christ is Lord through His serving--and so it's not because of a structural hierarchy that wives submit to their husbands, it's out of love, freely given love borne out of devotion and imitation to Jesus--and husbands are to do the exact same thing. Husbands are called to the bottom, to serve, to give, to submit to their wives even as Christ became the Slave of slaves to give His life freely out of love. Children obey your parents? Of course, that's normal--but it's not a one way street, parents are servants of their children, "Do not provoke your children to anger" is about respect and reciprocity, if you have raised your child the way the child should be raised, they will not scorn you, begrudge you, or disown you once they are grown (i.e. "provoked to anger"). Telling slaves to obey? In a society where slavery was just a mundane fact of life the idea that a slave ought to do what he is told by the household head is entirely mundane--but to tell the master to serve, submit, and be a slave to his slave? That's pretty radical.

The whole point: We behold God in Christ, and God condescends in Christ to be a Servant.

"Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." (Ephesians 5:1)

And if you really want to go wild and do some serious exegetical work, notice the "Therefore", because that tells us this itself is continuing from before, where we see,

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31)

Which is just the last verse of chapter 4 where Paul talks about how Christians are to live radically new lives, borne of that newness that comes from Christ; having put away the former Old Man to put on the New (Ephesians 4:20-24). And all of this extends from the earlier call to unity in the Church and the call to an upward calling in Christ who shows us the new way to be human ("until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to full adulthood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children,")

Spiritual adulthood in Christ, which does not look like being petty child-tyrants to one another, but full devotion and love, speaking truth, giving of ourselves to others rather than taking from others and giving to ourselves. And so much more.

No. Paul is not telling women they are the property of their husbands. And all the Complimentarian language about "ontological equality" is mere smoke to cover the fact that one is saying men and women are not actually equal at all; and that women are supposed to be less than men. And now you are using this as a justification to say husbands should have the authority, as heads of the household, to vote; and thus deprive everyone else of their enfranchisement in a democratic process.

And let's be clear, even if your interpretation of Ephesians 5 was accurate (and it's not), it wouldn't matter here.

Because the United States isn't a Christian nation. Though I do think it interesting that America seems to always be a "Christian nation" when it serves the interests of some, for example, in denying liberty to certain people. But suddenly America stops being a "Christian nation" when it comes down to, oh I don't know, food or medical security. Almost as though "Christian nation" rhetoric just means, "I want power".

The emperor has no clothes.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DaisyDay

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Maybe the men should give them the right to be drafted just like how they gave them the right to vote?
The draft was abolished in the 1970s - do you remember that? I do as my brother was of age then.

Registration to selective service remains and all eighteen years olds or none should be required to sign up.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Meaning, according to you, that she doesn't get the vote
I never said I was opposed to women voting. I am opposed to them voting without being required to register for the draft. I thought I made that abundantly clear.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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If that passage is the justification for his position then it only applies to Christian women whose husbands can talk them into going along with it. It has nothing to do with the rights and duties of the citizens of a secular state.
Nobody is suggesting otherwise.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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You think that St. Paul's call for Christians to submit to one another out of love and out of imitation and devotion to Christ means that women shouldn't be enfranchised to vote?
Nope. Now you are making things up.
 
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