No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Spiritual Jew said:

If you read the verses which come before those, you can see that Pharaoh was given as an example of someone who was a vessel of wrath. He was not created as a vessel of wrath, he was chosen to be a vessel of wrath because he had already hardened his own heart before God chose to use him as a vessel of wrath through which to show His power and declare His name in all the earth.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

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Spiritual Jew said:

You are making this up in your imagination. This is not what scripture teaches. Are you just afraid to actually address my point? Are you that brainwashed by your doctrine that you can't even address anything besides what you've been brainwashed into believing?

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we ARE saved through faith but NOT by works. Why are you equating faith and works when Paul did not? Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

What would you tell someone if they asked you what they had to do to be saved? I would assume you would be consistent with your beliefs and tell them there is nothing they can do to be saved, right?

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Akita Suggagaki said:

We are not Adam. Unless we view "Adam" as humanity and not one person..

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zoidar said:

Don't you care Paul uses "works" differently?

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1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any produ
   Not of works,.... Of any kind, moral or ceremonial, before or after conversion, done without faith or in it, nor of these in any sense;
   ct whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Not of works,.... Of any kind, moral or ceremonial, before or after conversion, done without faith or in it, nor of these in any sense; works are neither the moving causes, nor the procuring causes, nor the helping causes, nor "causa sine qua non", or conditions of salvation; the best works that are done by men, are not done of themselves, but by the grace of God, and therefore can never merit at his hand: and salvation is put upon such a foot,
lest any man should boast; of his works before God, and unto men; wherefore he has denied works any place in justification and salvation, in order to exclude all boasting in man; and has fixed it in a way of grace, and has chosen and called poor sinful worthless creatures to enjoy it, that whoever glories, may glory in the Lord.

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Spiritual Jew said:

You didn't bother responding to what I actually said. It does not say that God made Pharaoh a vessel of wrath from birth or decided that before the foundation of the world as you probably imagine. Does context mean nothing to you? Before God ever dealt with Pharaoh, he had hardened his own heart and treated God's people poorly. So, God, as He has every right to do, decided to make an example of Pharaoh and to show His power through him.

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Spiritual Jew said:

Are you a robot or something? Why do you not address my points? I pointed out how Paul contrasted faith with works in Ephesians 2:8-9. Is it too much to ask you to address that instead of insisting that every action of any kind is the kind of work that is not required for salvation?


So, you would not tell them what Paul and Silas told the jailer who asked them that question? You would not tell them "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:30-31) as Paul and Silas told the jailer when asked that question?

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1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Akita Suggagaki said:

"Representative" as in figurative language. OK

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zoidar said:

Gill writes:

"Not of works,.... Of any kind, moral or ceremonial, before or after conversion, done without faith or in it, nor of these in any sense;"

Gill does not consider "faith" as "work". He writes "works" are things done, moral or ceremonial, with faith or without faith. So he clearly distinguishes "faith" from "works".

The Mosaic Law consists of the ceremonial law, the moral law and the civil law.

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Akita Suggagaki said:

Maybe in Paul's mind and that is ok.

It occurs to me though that we have different levels of awareness. At the superficial conscious level I seem to have a choice about whether I will be an accountant or a salesman. But what is the core the human person? Is it a place of freedom or determinism? At a deeper lever there of psychologic factors at play. Introvert, extrovert, of example. Deeper memories of experiences shape out superficial conscious choices. I might reject church because of abuse, for example. And there is a difference between determinism and influence. We maybe influenced by our genetics and our experiences but there is a spark of the soul (image and likeness of God} that is capable of freedom. "You will know the truth and the truth will make you free John 8:32.

If no one can come to Christ of their own free will, then they are prisoners.

And another though. If it is raining outside and I need to get out I have a choice to use an umbrella or not. If I am in my right mind and I will naturally choose to use on. I am still free but the choice seems obvious. Same with faith and coming to Christ. It is natural to be drawn and to say yes. What stops us is all the inner stuff that gets in the way.

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