No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

A New Dawn · Sunday at 6:49 PM

zoidar said:
The work God accomplishes in us is conditional of our response. I believe God had worked on my heart for a long time, possibly for years. But I knew the very moment God gave me a new heart, when I was born again and that was after prayer and confession. It's always God who makes the first move.

The Bible says we can resist the work of the Holy Spirit.

“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
— Acts 7:51

Salvation is conditional on confession:

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”⁠—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
— Romans 10:8-9

Salvation is conditional on repentance and faith:

But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
— Acts 3:18-19

When the jailer asked Paul and Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?", their answer was clear:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
— Acts 16:30-31

The very fact these commands exist shows we can do otherwise, or else those commands would be pretty meaningless.

God sure put a lot of conditions on a free gift, according to your belief.

First off, faith and salvation by faith is the free gift God gives us, as evidenced in Ephesians 2. Secondly, confession and repentance are the natural response to God’s free gift of salvation through faith. It is impossible to seek God while we are under sin (sin nature).

Romans 3:11-17 (NASB95) 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” 13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; 14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; 15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

I’m sure you get the idea.

Brightfame52 · Monday at 8:07 AM

So Jesus teaches what is called total depravity or inability as the T in Tulip ! 12

Akita Suggagaki · Monday at 9:05 AM

A New Dawn said:
No. God created the world and man and called it good. Man chose to rebel, bringing death and destruction onto himself and the world. God, in His mercy, chose to save some.

So if a person is not "drawn" to the savior, is it his fault? It would seem not. He can't help it.

But I look at it a different way. We all have a choice to reflect on our lives and how we live them. Grace is available to assist us. We have a choice to let ourselves be drawn or not. Many people are stuck in an uncommitted indeterminacy. They make a superficial intellectual ascent but are not ready to make the deeper commitment requiring a changed life. But why? Why do they lack that readiness? Is it their own fault or has God not made the draw and grace powerful enough? Perhaps their hearts are like the rocky ground. But again, why? Whose fault is it?

Maybe it comes down to the issue of universal salvation. Is It just a matter of time before "all things are drawn" to him? John 12:32, Romans 8:22

But he also says, "Narrow is the gate" Matthew 7:13

Maybe we just waste our time and energy on the question of free will and grace. In this life we at least seem to be face with choice on a daily basis. We seem to have a need to discern right from wrong and where to put put loyalties and trust. Maybe that is all that really matters. the rest is philosophy.

A New Dawn · Monday at 9:08 AM

Akita Suggagaki said:
So if a person is not "drawn" to the savior, is it his fault? It would seem not. He can't help it.

But I look at it a different way. We all have a choice to reflect on our lives and how we live them. Grace is available to assist us. We have a choice to let ourselves be drawn or not. Many people are stuck in an uncommitted indeterminacy. They make a superficial intellectual ascent but are not ready to make the deeper commitment requiring a changed life. But why? Why do they lack that readiness? Is it their own fault or has God not made the draw and grace powerful enough? Perhaps their hearts are like the rocky ground. But again, why? Whose fault is it?

Maybe it comes down to the issue of universal salvation. Is It just a matter of time before "all things are drawn" to him? John 12:32, Romans 8:22

But he also says, "Narrow is the gate" Matthew 7:13

Maybe we just waste our time and energy on the question of free will and grace. In this life we at least seem to be face with choice on a daily basis. We seem to have a need to discern right from wrong and where to put put loyalties and trust. Maybe that is all that really matters. the rest is philosophy.

Man caused it in the first place. Why does he deserve, as you seem to suggest, that God has to save him???

So you are ignoring John 12:33? Which gives the purpose of the statement in verse 32?

And without further clarification it is impossible to understand your inclusion of Romans 8:22 in the discussion. The whole of creation is groaning out for deliverance relates to universalism how?

We are faced with choices on a daily basis, the there is no question about it, the issue of salvation, though, is not one of those choices because salvation is God’s domain. The Bible says so all over the place. You just have to believe it is true despite what you want to be true.

Akita Suggagaki · Monday at 9:10 AM

A New Dawn said:
Man caused it in the first place. Why does he deserve, as you seem to suggest, that God has to save him???

Why did man cause it in the first place? Was it an act of free will or did he lack grace to do otherwise?

A New Dawn · Monday at 9:30 AM

Akita Suggagaki said:
Why did man cause it in the first place? Was it an act of free will or did he lack grace to do otherwise?

He was walking and talking with God in the Garden of Eden. That is the ultimate definition of grace. He (of all people on earth) had the ability to make a free will decision. He had one rule to follow and couldn’t even do that. And once he rebelled and got cast out of the Garden, all of creation fell, and in our separation from God, we lost our ability to make free will decisions. All we can do now is make decisions based on our fallen nature. And because of our fallen nature we cannot seek for God, we cannot understand God, we do not fear God, and no one does good without God. (Romans 3).

Akita Suggagaki · Monday at 9:44 AM

A New Dawn said:
He was walking and talking with God in the Garden of Eden. That is the ultimate definition of grace. He (of all people on earth) had the ability to make a free will decision. He had one rule to follow and couldn’t even do that. And once he rebelled and got cast out of the Garden, all of creation fell, and in our separation from God, we lost our ability to make free will decisions. All we can do now is make decisions based on our fallen nature. And because of our fallen nature we cannot seek for God, we cannot understand God, we do not fear God, and no one does good without God. (Romans 3).

Than no one is culpable since we cannot do otherwise.

A New Dawn · Monday at 11:15 AM

Akita Suggagaki said:
Than no one is culpable since we cannot do otherwise.

NO. Adam sinned, and his sin is imputed to us by virtue of the fact that creation fell BECAUSE OF HIM. We are still responsible for the sin we commit. Why in the world would you suggest that nobody is responsible for their sin and we should all be saved? God is a righteous and just and honorable and good and holy God, and He created us in HIS image. Why would someone who is perfect tolerate, as his companions, persons who rebel against Him? That is ridiculous.

Akita Suggagaki · Monday at 12:06 PM

A New Dawn said:
NO. Adam sinned, and his sin is imputed to us by virtue of the fact that creation fell BECAUSE OF HIM. We are still responsible for the sin we commit. Why in the world would you suggest that nobody is responsible for their sin and we should all be saved? God is a righteous and just and honorable and good and holy God, and He created us in HIS image. Why would someone who is perfect tolerate, as his companions, persons who rebel against Him? That is ridiculous.

Because it is only by his grace that we can turn to him. Without it we cannot, we are incapable, even the innocent newborn child.

Brightfame52 · Monday at 1:30 PM

@Akita Suggagaki

So if a person is not "drawn" to the savior, is it his fault? It would seem not. He can't help it.

Man had his chance with a right relationship with God initially in Adam,, and chose to disobey ! God isnt obligated to save Him

zoidar · Monday at 2:08 PM

A New Dawn said:
Why do you have children if you don’t know they will be saved? That’s YOUR choice, not God’s. He created them good, he did not create them as vessels of wrath, unless, of course, that’s the kind of God you believe in.

I agree God did not create them or anyone as a vessel of wrath. I think many would disagree though...

Brightfame52 · Monday at 3:12 PM

zoidar said:
I agree God did not create them or anyone as a vessel of wrath. I think many would disagree though...

Yes He did create some as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction, Rom 9:20-22 intimates that

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 3:12 PM

A New Dawn said:
The issue is if you have to accept it in order for it to be valid, then, yes it is a work. ANY stipulation you set that you have to do yourself is a work.

It's not the kind of work that Paul talked about in Ephesians 2:8-9 when he said salvation is not by works because faith is contrasted with works there. Salvation IS through faith, but is NOT by works. But, Calvinists like you just ignore that.

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 3:15 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Yes He did create some as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction, Rom 9:20-22 intimates that

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

If you read the verses which come before those, you can see that Pharaoh was given as an example of someone who was a vessel of wrath. He was not created as a vessel of wrath, he was chosen to be a vessel of wrath because he had already hardened his own heart before God chose to use him as a vessel of wrath through which to show His power and declare His name in all the earth.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 3:19 PM

A New Dawn said:
What do you think perseverance of the saints means?

In Calvinism, it means that God ensures that the saints will persevere and keep their faith until the end. But, passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 put the responsibility on us to be faithful and keep our confidence and trust in God until the end. God doesn't do that for us or else the warnings about making sure not to turn away from God in unbelief and making sure to keep our original conviction and faith until the end are completely pointless.

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 3:22 PM

Brightfame52 said:
More of your insults, doesnt help you

Your weak arguments don't help you.

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 3:23 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Sorry works covers a very broad spectrum, it covers all conditions and qualifications you must act or do. So if you believe your accepting a gift is required for salvation, thats works, and disqualifies you for Grace Salvation

You are making this up in your imagination. This is not what scripture teaches. Are you just afraid to actually address my point? Are you that brainwashed by your doctrine that you can't even address anything besides what you've been brainwashed into believing?

Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we ARE saved through faith but NOT by works. Why are you equating faith and works when Paul did not? Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

What would you tell someone if they asked you what they had to do to be saved? I would assume you would be consistent with your beliefs and tell them there is nothing they can do to be saved, right?

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 3:26 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Why address them ? Im sticking to what I posted. I dont have to explain everything you go round up

You should be willing to address any challenges to your view. If you're not willing to do that, then it shows that you choose to just believe in a doctrine based on cherry picked scriptures while you prefer to just ignore or twist all the scriptures that your doctrine contradicts.

Akita Suggagaki · Monday at 4:12 PM

Brightfame52 said:
@Akita Suggagaki

Man had his chance with a right relationship with God initially in Adam,, and chose to disobey ! God isnt obligated to save Him

We are not Adam. Unless we view "Adam" as humanity and not one person..

zoidar · Monday at 4:44 PM

A New Dawn said:
God sure put a lot of conditions on a free gift, according to your belief.

First off, faith and salvation by faith is the free gift God gives us, as evidenced in Ephesians 2. Secondly, confession and repentance are the natural response to God’s free gift of salvation through faith. It is impossible to seek God while we are under sin (sin nature).

Romans 3:11-17 (NASB95) 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” 13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; 14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; 15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

I’m sure you get the idea.

My understanding is a gift is free (particularily salvation) if you don't have to work for it. Receiving a free gift is not a work in Paul's mind. As been shown by Spiritual Jew already, Paul contrasts faith with work, so faith itself is not a work.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

When it comes to Romans 3, I think it teaches everyone being under the curse of sin, both Jew and Gentile and the grim reality of human rebellion is demonstated by the OT verses. I think we read too much into it if we believe it says we can't respond unless we are first regenerated. It can just as well be pointing to God being the one who initiates the seeking, rather than saying we can't respond.

No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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